Language as skill?

[msd]

Have any of you used attempted to use a character's knowledge of language just as another skill? In other words, instead of a character either knowing a language or not knowing a language, he makes a check?

I thought I had seen something in UA about this but can't seem to find it?

How would this best be implemented? Instead of simply noting that the character knows language X, give him 4 ranks in Knowledge (Language X) at character creation and let him make any further choices regarding language from there?

Thanks,
Matt

 

[Quickleaf]

With all the checks a player makes during play, it's unlikely that adding another skill check for language would be too useful. Generally. If, however, you are running a game where there is a secret language "of power" that is forbidden or otherwise hidden, perhaps speaking it could require a skill check. This would also be a helpful mechanic if the PCs are in a place where no one speaks their native tongue. Or what if comprehend languages/tongues don't exist in your campaign?

If we arbitrarily decide 4 ranks = fluency, then we might have a table that looks like this...

DC Effect
5...................Understand your native tongue
10.................?
15.................?
20.................Understanding a foreign tongue that relies on different sound structures nearly impossible for humans to make (like an insect chittering, certain "clicking" languages, animal tongues, creatures that speak with 2 voices, etc)
+5.................Speaking the language

If we take into account that you usually can take 10 on this check, it only makes the DC 15 and 20 require a roll, and sometimes not even the DC 15.

Overall seems like more trouble than it's worth....Just my thoughts.

 

[msd]

With all the checks a player makes during play, it's unlikely that adding another skill check for language would be too useful. Generally. If, however, you are running a game where there is a secret language "of power" that is forbidden or otherwise hidden, perhaps speaking it could require a skill check. This would also be a helpful mechanic if the PCs are in a place where no one speaks their native tongue. Or what if comprehend languages/tongues don't exist in your campaign?

If we arbitrarily decide 4 ranks = fluency, then we might have a table that looks like this...

DC Effect
5...................Understand your native tongue
10.................?
15.................?
20.................Understanding a foreign tongue that relies on different sound structures nearly impossible for humans to make (like an insect chittering, certain "clicking" languages, animal tongues, creatures that speak with 2 voices, etc)
+5.................Speaking the language

If we take into account that you usually can take 10 on this check, it only makes the DC 15 and 20 require a roll, and sometimes not even the DC 15.

Overall seems like more trouble than it's worth....Just my thoughts.

Yeah...I see what you are saying. What I was trying to accomplish was something that would make languages a little more interesting and possibly create story ideas.

To that end, I think I would probably shift the DC's up a bit. In other words, at character creation you know common and any other racial languages, and your bonus languages are languages you merely have some level of training in, but are not necessarily fluent in.

Oh well...thanks for the input though.

 

[Nessin]

Well you can really do it as is with Speak Language. Instead of making it a language learned for every rank, simply add ranks to it as a normal skill, then create DCs for various languages, and have them roll for a language they encounter. The greater the result above the DC represents how fluent they are.

 

[Terath Ninir]

Language rarely seems like it's worth a whole skill all by itself. And the systems where they make you learn the spoken language and the written language seperately are a total gyp -- why would anyone want to waste their skill points that way?

But I've found an answer. Languages don't normally exist in a vaccuum (other than constructed abominations like Esperanto). It is part of a culture. Even an ancient language like Latin is still part of a culture -- Latin classes always rely heavily on ancient books. When Latin was the language of learning in medieval Europe, it additionally carried with it the culture of the then-current learned classes.

My solution, then, is to make Knowledge sub-skills for each language. You don't just learn elven -- you learn elven culture, writings, history, styles of weapons, etc. It's used for conversation and reading, yes, but it also carries with it the knowledge of elvenkind. If you come across elven magic items, you might recognize them. If you hear an elven song, you know not just what the words are, but what the story means to the elves. (On successful skill rolls, of course.)

You don't have to add new skills, and the changes to Knowledge are relatively minor. I'd call the various skills Knowledge ("x" culture). You do need to deal with the skill point situation, though. Grant characters 4 ranks automatically in their starting languages -- or possibly grant them 8 points plus 4 points per Int bonus, to be divided between culture skills as they wish.

I'm sure some more tweaking needs to be done, but I think it would be much less of a skill point waste than pure language skills.

 

[Quickleaf]

Cyberzombie, cool idea! Maybe I was too hasty to dismiss the idea, MSD. So...
Here is my 5-minute treatment of the new and improved Language skill (you may want to change the name)

Language (Int)
While mages concern themselves with musty tomes written in forgotten tongues, the rest of the world is speaking in a myriad of living languages. These languages are thriving, changing, vital windows into the culture, people, and traditions of the world.

All characters begin with one or more automatic languages (typically Common is among these). These are decided either by a character's race or the region they hail from. In addition a character has bonus regional languages that are part of the character's Each language has sister languages, which have a similar alphabet, structure, or ancestry.

SPECIAL: When you spend 3 points in the Language skill you may choose to erase those points from your skill and instead move one of your regional/sister languages to your automatic language list, thereby gaining fluency in that language. At the GM's option, certain other foreign languages may be selected according to your character's experience.

SPECIAL NOTE: This skill replaces the anthropology element of Knowledge (geography)

Sister Languages (as per SRD, suggested that you customize these to your world!!)Elven Group: Elven, Aquan, Sylvan, Undercommon
Fiendish Group: Abyssal, Infernal, Yugoloth
Draconic Group: Auran, Draconic, Ignan
Dwarven Group: Dwarven, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran
Common Group: Common, Gnoll, Halfling

SKILL CHECK
Language DC Task
Automatic.............Speak native (automatic) languages, identify common cultural elements connected to native languages (music, writing, dress, weapons, architecture, etc)
10.........................Understanding a dialect in your native language
12........................Understanding the gist of a sister language
15........................Understanding the gist of a regional language, Identifying subculture elements connected to native language (e.g. dialect)
20........................Identifying sister culture elements connected to native language (e.g. sister language), Identifying regional cultural elements connections to secondary language
25........................Identifying a subculture element of a sister or regional culture
+5.......................Language is based on non-human vocal chords, or other nearly impossible to recreate sounds

SPECIAL: The Language skill can be used in place of the Sense Motive skill when determining if someone is from your native culture or not, or whether they're a native speaker or not. In this case it is opposed by a Bluff or possibly Disguise check.

NEW FEAT: Trade Tongue [general]
When confronted with foreign languages you are able to effectively communicate using pidgin and gestures.
Benefit: You can make a Language check to understand the gist of what is being said, even when confronted by a completely foreign language (one that is not on your secondary languages list). The DC is 15 for a language you’ve been exposed to, 20 for foreign languages, and 25 for exotic tongues. You ignore the +5 penalty for non-standard languages. This feat only applies to spoken language.

 

[sfedi]

In Rolemaster there was a very detailed system were you could put upto 10 ranks in a particular language.
Each rank represented the measure of your knowldedge and fluency in that language.

Normal speech could be attained with ranks 6 to 8, depending on the cultural level of the person.
Rank 0 (IIRC) merely allows you to recognize the language
Rank 1 allowed you know the basic few words any can learn in a few minutes
...
Rank 4, basic speech
...
Rank 6 you can speak, with errors, and you have accent
...
Rank 8 you are fluid
Rank 9 you know dialects
Rank 10 you know ancients forms of the language

Something like that

 

[msd]

These are all great ideas guys...

I know its clear now, but I think there are so many neat opportunities where communication and understanding is not 100% guaranteed.

The party meets what appears to be a standard wood elf while on a little known path...it is clear that he speaks Elvish, but this is unlike any other form of Elvish that any of the party members know...perhaps he is a member of the lost tribe of Elves known as the Keebler Elves?

Player: Nope...I understand him. See my character sheet? It says I speak Elvish. If he is speaking Elvish, I understand him.

DM: Oh, you clearly recognize his tongue as some variant of Elvish, but the dialect is very strange and the vocabulary only uses words you know sparingly...

Player: I know Elvish...its written write here on my character sheet.

DM: okaaaaaaaaaaaay

Not that I play with players like this, but you get the picture...

 

[Crothian]

The Kalamar setting does this for languages and they do it very well.

 

[reanjr]

Have any of you used attempted to use a character's knowledge of language just as another skill? In other words, instead of a character either knowing a language or not knowing a language, he makes a check?

I thought I had seen something in UA about this but can't seem to find it?

How would this best be implemented? Instead of simply noting that the character knows language X, give him 4 ranks in Knowledge (Language X) at character creation and let him make any further choices regarding language from there?

Thanks,
Matt

One thing I've done in the past for "Common" tongue is require certain grammatical structures on the speakers to simulate limited usefulness or understanding. As an example, you can not use any word greater than 1 syllable or no words starting with vowels, etc. It makes the players (and DM) struggle with the language and can create confusion. You could assign differing rules to different levels of aptitude. This isn't how I used the method, but it's a natural extension.