Yeah, I don't mock or disparage any language, its just a convenient way to slide in a word or phrase.
D&D General Languages suck in D&D.
- Thread starter Steampunkette
- Start date
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️⚧️
I have to ask, particularly after the topic of Westron in the old Arnor/Gondor stomping grounds, if the vast majority of D&D campaigns take place in a relatively small geographic environment, then what's the practical difference between PC/NPC being mutually intelligible through local language and being mutually intelligible via Common? Isn't "Common" essentially the dominant language, in your case, locally?
Not whom you asked, but:
Common is flavored as a language that would work anywhere, if you changed continents, you could still communicate.
A local "common" language, such as Gondorian, is assumed to remain fairly local, with no expectation of communicating in far off lands.
So for local campaigns, you are correct, Gondorian is Common. But I dont like the inference that Common is its own widespread language.
Sword of Spirit
Legend
I came up with an entire language system for D&D with the goals of making it so everyone doesn't speak Common, there is interesting linguistic diversity, and yet PCs who want to can reasonably expect to learn enough languages to get a lot of use out of them. Note that this is a multiverse campaign where we visit various worlds and planes, so it has to encompass all of D&D (2e lore at least).
1) Common tongues (of which "Common" is the best known) are simplified trade tongues spoken as a second language by (typically) travelers, innkeepers, merchants, and aristocrats. So in most places you actually can speak to the people you have to to get quests and accomodations, but if you don't speak the regional tongue, you'll have a hard time communicating with most people. Common tongues are typically based on an original or "high" tongue, which is a regional language. If you speak it you can understand Common.
2) There are species tongues, and for functionality I rarely make dialects of them significant. I keep linguistic diversity as primarily a human feature. Non-humans typically speak the Common tongue under the same situation as humans. So those goblin leaders speak Common, but the villagers and most warriors probably don't.
3) There are, in the multiverse, many root tongues. For example, there are about 23 human root tongues. There are also planar species root tongues (Aasimon is the root tongue of angels, and Celestial is its Common variety, also known as Upper Planar Trade), and mortal species root tongues (Elvish, etc).
3) "Variants" are what I call basically the same root language with a different name and accent. So the root "high" language that Common is based on in Faerun is Chondathan, which is basically the same language as Ergot from Krynn and Oeridian from Oerth, which is also Planar, the language of Sigil and environs, and is typically known to multiverse scholars as Imperial, due to often arising from the most recent empire on a world.
4) Root tongues also have what I call "dialects" which are basically slightly different languages that aren't initially mutually intellgible, but can be picked up much easier than learning a new language (and in my system, without using character build resources).
5) Root tongues typically have multiversal origins, and are spoken in many worlds, even if not directly related to those sources. So, the root language of the Norse pantheon is Asgardian, and most Norse-inspired cultures speak a variant or dialect of it, even if the Norse pantheon isn't known on their world. In Faerun, Illuskan is a variant of Asgardian. I leaned into making most languages variants so they could be more easily understood, but some worlds more heavy on dialects. For example Krynn has some really weird mix and match real world inspirations, so I used dialects heavily, and communication traditionally was supposed to be difficult in Ravenloft so most (maybe all) of their human tongues ended up being dialects.
6) There are also root tongues for certain kinds of species, like an Avian tongue, of which the languages of most bird-people are dialects of. Going through a giant list of monsters and species from 2e, I assigned every language as either a variant, dialect, or its own root. Due to the diversity of monsters, I ended up with over 200 roots, even though I tried to minimize them.
7) For many of the more widespread languages I expanded them a bit from 5e standards, without going all the way into the old "everything speaks its own language" explosion. So, there is a High Draconic spoken by true dragons, and Low Draconic spoken by lizardfolk and kobolds, and all those other species listed as speaking Draconic. There is also a Giant typically spoken mostly by true giants, and a Giantish spoken by ogres and other giant-like species.
8) I made heavy use of previous edition lore regarding the human languages spoken in different settings, and fit it into this scheme of variants and dialects of the 23 human root languages.
9) I also made various aphabets and assigned a most frequently used one to each root language, though variants and dialects could use different ones. At the start of the main campaign, the characters were all magically brought together from different worlds and found they could speak the same Common tongue, but the Forgotten Realms version was written in a different alphabet, because Chondathan is written in the Thorass script (which is known as Tuathan in the multiverse, and is the alphabet the Celtic pantheon uses), while the Imperial/Common script is the Damaran script.
10) I did a good deal of real world research when designing human root tongues and dialects but didn't feel any need to be accurate when it worked better not to be. It's a fantasy multiverse and research was inspiration.
The payoff for all of this is that wherever we go and whatever we meet in the multiverse, I know what languages they speak, what script it is written in (if any) and know who in the party can speak or read it, and how easy they can figure it out and pick it up if they want to. Yes, this has been an enormous amount of work that wouldn't be worth it for the more story-focused style that is currently popular. It makes more sense from the exploration-focused style of D&D I prefer.
1) Common tongues (of which "Common" is the best known) are simplified trade tongues spoken as a second language by (typically) travelers, innkeepers, merchants, and aristocrats. So in most places you actually can speak to the people you have to to get quests and accomodations, but if you don't speak the regional tongue, you'll have a hard time communicating with most people. Common tongues are typically based on an original or "high" tongue, which is a regional language. If you speak it you can understand Common.
2) There are species tongues, and for functionality I rarely make dialects of them significant. I keep linguistic diversity as primarily a human feature. Non-humans typically speak the Common tongue under the same situation as humans. So those goblin leaders speak Common, but the villagers and most warriors probably don't.
3) There are, in the multiverse, many root tongues. For example, there are about 23 human root tongues. There are also planar species root tongues (Aasimon is the root tongue of angels, and Celestial is its Common variety, also known as Upper Planar Trade), and mortal species root tongues (Elvish, etc).
3) "Variants" are what I call basically the same root language with a different name and accent. So the root "high" language that Common is based on in Faerun is Chondathan, which is basically the same language as Ergot from Krynn and Oeridian from Oerth, which is also Planar, the language of Sigil and environs, and is typically known to multiverse scholars as Imperial, due to often arising from the most recent empire on a world.
4) Root tongues also have what I call "dialects" which are basically slightly different languages that aren't initially mutually intellgible, but can be picked up much easier than learning a new language (and in my system, without using character build resources).
5) Root tongues typically have multiversal origins, and are spoken in many worlds, even if not directly related to those sources. So, the root language of the Norse pantheon is Asgardian, and most Norse-inspired cultures speak a variant or dialect of it, even if the Norse pantheon isn't known on their world. In Faerun, Illuskan is a variant of Asgardian. I leaned into making most languages variants so they could be more easily understood, but some worlds more heavy on dialects. For example Krynn has some really weird mix and match real world inspirations, so I used dialects heavily, and communication traditionally was supposed to be difficult in Ravenloft so most (maybe all) of their human tongues ended up being dialects.
6) There are also root tongues for certain kinds of species, like an Avian tongue, of which the languages of most bird-people are dialects of. Going through a giant list of monsters and species from 2e, I assigned every language as either a variant, dialect, or its own root. Due to the diversity of monsters, I ended up with over 200 roots, even though I tried to minimize them.
7) For many of the more widespread languages I expanded them a bit from 5e standards, without going all the way into the old "everything speaks its own language" explosion. So, there is a High Draconic spoken by true dragons, and Low Draconic spoken by lizardfolk and kobolds, and all those other species listed as speaking Draconic. There is also a Giant typically spoken mostly by true giants, and a Giantish spoken by ogres and other giant-like species.
8) I made heavy use of previous edition lore regarding the human languages spoken in different settings, and fit it into this scheme of variants and dialects of the 23 human root languages.
9) I also made various aphabets and assigned a most frequently used one to each root language, though variants and dialects could use different ones. At the start of the main campaign, the characters were all magically brought together from different worlds and found they could speak the same Common tongue, but the Forgotten Realms version was written in a different alphabet, because Chondathan is written in the Thorass script (which is known as Tuathan in the multiverse, and is the alphabet the Celtic pantheon uses), while the Imperial/Common script is the Damaran script.
10) I did a good deal of real world research when designing human root tongues and dialects but didn't feel any need to be accurate when it worked better not to be. It's a fantasy multiverse and research was inspiration.
The payoff for all of this is that wherever we go and whatever we meet in the multiverse, I know what languages they speak, what script it is written in (if any) and know who in the party can speak or read it, and how easy they can figure it out and pick it up if they want to. Yes, this has been an enormous amount of work that wouldn't be worth it for the more story-focused style that is currently popular. It makes more sense from the exploration-focused style of D&D I prefer.
LordEntrails
Hero
YEa, but that's one of the great things about D&D, you can make your own rules and content. This predilection to only value rules and content from WotC is just so strange to e. Especially on ENWorld where we share so much custom content.
Dudette you totally missing everything important. Let's start with the at least 3 other examples already provided in this thread. The least of which was 1 page for just the languages table. And the other person who said they would expect their version to be 5 pages. So sure, 20 pages is certainly too much, but 800 words is probably not enough. But this actually isn't the important part.
As for your publishing example, that shows that publishing content for WotC is not simple and straight forward. It shows that there are many more people, and costs involved, than just paying 25 cents per word. And my points that it's not about the words, but the opportunity cost. Publishing anything about one things means they don't publish something else.
And no, I know very little about WotC's publishing process. But I do know my own publishing process as I've published multiple products over the years, most of the D&D related. It's never as simple as you made it sound initially. You process outline shows that.
You are completely ignoring my other points that are even more important than the size or process. First, you admit this would only be used by a small number of folks. Not that you need me to support your idea, but if you want me to you're going to have to show my why it's a good business decision for WotC to spend resources on it.
(Edit: and you completely ignored my whole section on Comprehend Languages and what it does to a detailed language system.)
I would also like to know, if a detailed language system is so important to world building and D&D, then why don't you publish your own version of it? There are several folks here who agree with you and perhaps might even collaborate in developing such. And since you believe publishing is so easy, you can publish it yourself and make a ton of money since it's so important to D&D that surely you will sell a million copies.
And you think a detailed language system would be more popular than character options? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't every survey done here on ENWorld or by WotC point to more character options always being one of the top wants?
I stand by my point, adding a detailed language system would be a bad business decision for WotC to spend any words on. But it's a great opportunity for homebrew. And even a good opportunity to publish on the DMsGuild.
Thanks
As I've said, I think this is a great topic for people to write their own content and always encourage people to share!
Last edited:
LordEntrails
Hero
How does this play out at the table? And do your parties have access to magic to translate? If so, is it a limited resource? Do languages become a puzzle to solve or a road block? Or just another McGuffin to go seek?
Corinnguard
Hero
A 5e version of Everquest's Language skill would be interesting.
Voadam
Legend
An intelligence check for comprehensibility would be easy (though I would think just as cumbersome in play) to do in 5e. Related languages could give advantage to the comprehension check in 5e easily, say elvish and sylvan.
3e based d20 with its discretionary and level points based skill system had more mechanical room to differentiate things like full language proficiency and partial fluency. I seem to remember 5e having some rules about picking up a language over downtime, it would be easy enough to have this be staged to partial fluency first then full fluency with more time spent mastering it.
Another option would be for 5e related languages to be the EQd20 partial fluency type mechanic allowing an int check for comprehension. Possibly using the written script alphabets to determine which languages are related.
Corinnguard
Hero
Wouldn't comprehensibility also involve an Insight check (and therefore a WIS check) in order to ascertain what another person is trying to tell you while speaking a different language (that is either distant or related to your own)?
abirdcall
(she/her)
I agree that languages are a terrible system.
What I'm going to do moving forward is making most of the language choices for reading ancient text or understanding ancient phrases if they are spoken by a guardian or such (this is like knowing Latin).
If a character has the 'language' they get advantage on their intelligence check if one is called for.
In addition characters will have a dialect/accent (like common vs undercommon) which could have an impact on social interactions.
No rules for these just vibes.
Examples: nobility (posh), thieves cant, scholarly (being excessively erudite and stiff), Sigil'ian (many strange pronunciations and phrases)
What I'm going to do moving forward is making most of the language choices for reading ancient text or understanding ancient phrases if they are spoken by a guardian or such (this is like knowing Latin).
If a character has the 'language' they get advantage on their intelligence check if one is called for.
In addition characters will have a dialect/accent (like common vs undercommon) which could have an impact on social interactions.
No rules for these just vibes.
Examples: nobility (posh), thieves cant, scholarly (being excessively erudite and stiff), Sigil'ian (many strange pronunciations and phrases)
