D&D 5E Larger bonus to damage for weapons and damage reduction for armor instead of attack and AC bonus?

[Satyrn]

And [MENTION=6801299]Horwath[/MENTION], if you're thinking of how to handle this at your table as a DM, my suggestion is to not use your idea. Rather, just forget that there was ever any sort of +1/2/3 progression. Instead of replacing that progression with a new one, like in your OP, just make every item unique, with its own features.

So, give out a suit magic plate that provides DR, while some other suit of leather provides bonus hp. (And a breastplate of Pelor that provides temp hp every round! )

 

[darkrose50]

I want to do something like this (this way you can have someone with a frying pan, if you would like):

Base item 6-sides
[-2] Light
[+2] Heavy
[+2] Two-handed
[+2] Martial weapon proficiency known by character

[+2] Bonus action to re-load*
[+4] Action to re-load*

[+2] 12 Ability
[+4] 14 Ability
[+6] 16 Ability
[+8] 18 Ability
[+10] 20 Ability

[+4] +1 Magic
[+8] +2 Magic
[+16] +3 Magic

Total = sides of damage dice need to add up to total [maximum dice equal to proficiency bonus, if possible, closest if not]

*favoring ranged here, these can be removed, and/or "[-2] Ranged" could be added to the list to make ranged weapons more in line with the book.

I would also like to ramp up Ability damage.

 

[Blue]

I want to do something like this:

Base item 6-sides
[-2] Light
[+2] Heavy
[+2] Two-handed
[+2] Martial weapon proficiency known by character

I've seen other deconstructions of weapons by keyword. A comment I make each time is to reevaluate Heavy.

If you are small, it's grants an almost overwhelming penalty of Disadvantage on every attack - they won't pick it. For everyone else, it gives absolutely no penalty so everyone will design weapons with it. If you play with feats, it's actually a minor advantage of enabling the use of the Great Weapon Mastery feat.

 

[dave2008]

Thanks!

Welcome!

 

[Hawk Diesel]

This is the DnD Forum. What you're referring to is Some Other Game . (There are plenty with DR based armour).

This comment is really needlessly patronizing and adds little to the discussion. There is a great deal of design space in D&D, especially for homebrew rules/material and for magic items in particular. Just because something may never be adopted in official material does not mean it is without merit for consideration or could be fun for the right group.

As for the OP, I agree that such static bonuses really do throw bounded accuracy out the window. But my biggest problem with such items is that they are boring. If we existed in the game, how would anyone know or even notice the difference between a regular sword or a +1 sword? It doesn't feel different or even really function any differently except against enemies resistant to non-magical weapons. Such "magic" add nothing to the story or to player options. Other than making the DM have a headache with bounded accuracy, +1 type items do not really feel magical, mystical, or purposeful.

In terms of magic weapons, I think your increased damage mechanics are interesting. I'm not sure I would have the damage type by the normal damage type of the weapon, since a flaming/frost/shocking weapon is always more visually and thematically appealing (and useful) than a warhammer that just hits harder.

For armor, I don't know what more I can add to the conversation that hasn't already been said. Damage Reduction, in addition to increasing book-keeping, can negate the mob power of lower level enemies just as badly and breaking bounded accuracy. Temp HP is an interesting idea, but that also has the negative effect of making combats turn into even more of a slugfest, lengthening combat without adding much substance to it.

And so, when I think about magic items, I tend to think about options. What kind of magic would look cool, feel cool to use, and create more tactical opportunities?

Instead of a +1 armor, what about an armor that, once per rest, allows the wearer to use a reaction to swap places with a different enemy who then takes the hit? Or an armor that explodes with caustic goo when struck, causing the attacker to take some damage? Or a shield that you could surf on as it hovers inches above the ground, giving you a slight speed boost and immunity to difficult terrain in exchange for the AC bonus?

Also, I like to think about the specific players in my game when designing such items. What is going to be fun for them to use? What is going to synergize well with their abilities and build? What is going to allow for the players to make fun stories during the game?

 

[Stalker0]

I like the idea of temp hp for magic armor. You could even call it “armor hp” if you want it to stack with regular temp hp

 

[ThingsForThinkers]

I'm playtesting something like this right now, which sounds complicated but winds up being even easier than normal D&D combat in practice. There are three parts to it:

1. Armor now provides DR instead of any AC bonus. So your AC is just 10+Dex bonus + shield. DR goes from 1 (padded) to 8 (full plate)
2. Weapon damage is set at the average damage, so that doesn't get rolled. Damage goes from 2 (dagger) to 7 (greatsword).
3. When an attack hits, the attack roll now tells you how well it hit, so you add +1 to the damage for every point of your attack roll above the target AC.

This seems to balance out exactly, but it also has some interesting consequences that are pleasing to me:
- +1 to attack is now also effectively +1 to damage. I think is plays out like in real life.
- Only one roll during an attack
- If you nick somebody with a dagger, it does less damage than if you nick somebody with a greatsword
- Touch attacks make more sense now
- You can set the armor's DR to be different for different types of damage and some spells make more sense.

We haven't decided fully what to do about 20's now. In one sense, they are their own reward since you're already doing max damage. But we're also playing with the idea of ignoring DR on a 20.

One of the concerns I had with this as a DM is that now I basically have to say what the target's AC is, which I didn't used to always do. In play though, this works out really well. As one of my players pointed out to me, in a 'real' fight you would be able to pretty much figure out how hard it is to hit somebody as soon as you have done a round of combat.

Lastly - converting monster stats to this system is dead easy and done on the fly. Just look at their DEX bonus and their AC. AC is now their DEX bonus and DR is the difference.

 

[FrogReaver]

There is a lot of talk about breaking bounded accuracy with +1/+2/+3 weapons and armor/shields. Especially the armor part.

So instad of +1/+2/+3 to attack and damage weapons would gain +1d6/+2d6/+3d6 on damage.

Why die/dice instead of larger flat bonus?

Dice adds to critical damage and rolling more dice on critical is more fun. And critical should be critical.

Armor whould give 2/4/6 damage reduction instead of +1/+2/+3 AC bonus.

For shields I would not add any fixed bonuses, rather shields should have special enchantments removed from attack/damage/general damage reduction like fire resistance, evasion, etc.

A few thoughts:
1. The new +1 weapon attacking the new +1 armor is very nearly equivalent to the old +1 weapon attacking the old +1 armor. Good job keeping that balance factor present.
2. PC's are much more apt to have magic weapons and armors than the enemies they are fighting. How will the new magic weapons and armors affect the PC vs enemy battle?
2a. PC's will do much more damage with their weapons against anything but super high AC enemies. (Other than SS and GWM focused warriors).
2b. Monsters with large attacks will do a lot more to PC's in the new magic armor while monsters that multiattack a lot or enemies that fight in larger groups will do a lot less against the PC's new magic armor.

I think the magic armor change is probably fine. I'm slightly concerned with it changing up the whole "keep low level monsters dangerous in numbers" philosophy. But, I don't think 6 damage reduction is going to be any worse than the such monsters chances to hit being reduced to virtually nothing by a heavy armored character getting a +3 armor. (Most monsters that do really low damage like that also have a low attack bonus)

The magic weapon change feels more problematic to me. If you just max stat you get a better than 50% chance to hit most the time. When your chance to hit is 60%-65% then adding damage becomes a much more effective strategy at maximizing damage than maximizing chance to hit. In general I think your change will have anyone with a magic weapon dealing a lot more damage to enemies. I do like that it should reduce the need for GWM and SS to reach very high damage outputs. However, bringing up most characters to what those feats can do is not the answer IMO.

Unless the actual math proves my gut wrong I'd be against the weapon changes. The armor changes may be okay though.

 

[5ekyu]

When I'm, DMing, all of the weapons and armor I hand out are more like your shields, but far broader than what you suggest. Like, "Assassin's Armor" that lets its wielder slip into the shadowfell, say, or a "sword of Pelor" that lets the wielder turn undead and cast daylight.

I agree... the notion of going far more into fewer but more unique items and getting way removed from the generic plus items is a direction i find very enjoyable.

 

[CubicsRube]

I love the idea of armor as dr, even as a bonus magical effect in d&d. But it really requires a lot of reworking due to a large range of enemy damage. Especially hordes of low level enemies.

Instead what about temp hp that refresh on a short or long rest?

+1 leather armor vs Allafur's warding cloth - this cloth armor is embroidered with small gemstones that glow softly in a full moon. Crafted by an eladrin abjurer, this armor grants 10 temporary hit points to the wearer attuned to the item. The energy of the gemstones refreshes on a long rest.