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D&D 5E last encounter was totally one-sided

Hussar

Legend
This got me thinking. If people really want to have 1 encounter days, they should make sure all the foes have some kind of nova power so they can match pcs for at least 3 rounds. That's why spellcasting monsters usually out perform their CR level.

One thing I like to do is to give elite monsters second wind and action surge or other nova type powers that pcs often have. The spellcasters with counterspell are also a good defense for monster foes.

Really, to make single encounter days work, you can't just ramp up the monster's offense because that makes the encounter too swingy. Up offense too much and the monsters curb stomp PC's and that's not a good thing.

IMO, what you kinda have to do is have unlockable healing points for the monsters. At certain points in time, certain things start to trigger. For example, maybe the "leader" of the big encounter can heal mooks as a bonus action (or perhaps some sort of legendary action) - even bringing them back from 0 HP. Maybe at "bloodied" (half HP) the leader bad guy drops some sort of action which heals all allies by X points. Since PC's almost never "finish off" downed opponents, you can track Death Saves and this healing power obviously brings the baddies back up.

Another 4e idea was the idea of Big Bad's being able to "summon" or call in additional help. That Undead Collosus drops off six zombies every round. Whatever. Bring the fight numbers back up while not overwhelming the PC's.

IOW, you have to drag the fight out longer. If the fight is over in 3 rounds, you simply can't expend resources fast enough to make the fight dangerous. Make the fight last 8-10 rounds and now you can make it more interesting, so long as the nature of the fight changes over the course of those 10 rounds.

Add in several reactive style abilities (like legendary actions) can even up the score a bit as well.
 

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Rhenny

Adventurer
Really, to make single encounter days work, you can't just ramp up the monster's offense because that makes the encounter too swingy. Up offense too much and the monsters curb stomp PC's and that's not a good thing.

IMO, what you kinda have to do is have unlockable healing points for the monsters. At certain points in time, certain things start to trigger. For example, maybe the "leader" of the big encounter can heal mooks as a bonus action (or perhaps some sort of legendary action) - even bringing them back from 0 HP. Maybe at "bloodied" (half HP) the leader bad guy drops some sort of action which heals all allies by X points. Since PC's almost never "finish off" downed opponents, you can track Death Saves and this healing power obviously brings the baddies back up.

Another 4e idea was the idea of Big Bad's being able to "summon" or call in additional help. That Undead Collosus drops off six zombies every round. Whatever. Bring the fight numbers back up while not overwhelming the PC's.

IOW, you have to drag the fight out longer. If the fight is over in 3 rounds, you simply can't expend resources fast enough to make the fight dangerous. Make the fight last 8-10 rounds and now you can make it more interesting, so long as the nature of the fight changes over the course of those 10 rounds.

Add in several reactive style abilities (like legendary actions) can even up the score a bit as well.

I agree. That's why I usually use 2nd wind like feature and counterspells, etc. But having a little extra offense scares the PCs...maybe not too many fireballs though.

In the playtest, the dragon lair gave a lair action that regenerated hit points for the dragon. That really dragged the fight out. I ran a game in a mini-campaign where a party of 5 (8th level pcs) fought a Frost Giant King with two winter wolf pets and then a legendary adult white dragon in its lair. The party won, but there were moments where it was touch and go. The dragon almost got to use a tail smash that pushed one or more PCs into an ice crevice, which would have hurt a lot (both times the PC made the save vs. getting knocked back into the crevice). I think the dragon died and landed on top of one of the PCs squishing him to almost 0 hp. The fights together lasted about 16-18 rounds, about 4 or 5 for the giant king and winter wolves, and about 12 rounds for the dragon (can't remember exactly at this point since it was about 3 years ago).
 
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knasser

First Post
Honestly, it sounds from what you people are saying that I should be looking for a different game system. I appreciate the suggestions from Rhenny on how to add more encounters and they would be good suggestions as to how to trick the players into playing differently. But I don't want to do that. I don't want a game where I have to keep having non-dramatic combat after non-dramatic combat. I want a game where combat is an episodic climax, dramatic and challenging. Not where it is dramatic and challenging one game in six.

Honestly, this is mind-boggling to me that a role-playing game has such restrictions in the style of story you can run built in. I've played a lot of different RPG systems - started off with Shadowrun and White Wolf WoD games. Dipped into CoC. I have played D&D before but it was just one-shots long, long ago (2nd Ed.). Also Warhammer Fantasy Role-play 1st edition, Doctor Who: AiTaS, FFG's Star Wars. All have some assumptions built in but I've never found a game where I was forced to add low-meaning combats just so that the big meaningful combats worked mechanically. I'm finding all this very disheartening. My group expressed interest in playing a fantasy setting game so I bought D&D as the famous classic fantasy game. I'm honestly finding it good in some ways, but rules-wise it seems to be very shaky and odd. I'm about ready to look around for something else except I've spent a whole bunch of money on this product.
 

Rhenny

Adventurer
Honestly, it sounds from what you people are saying that I should be looking for a different game system. I appreciate the suggestions from Rhenny on how to add more encounters and they would be good suggestions as to how to trick the players into playing differently. But I don't want to do that. I don't want a game where I have to keep having non-dramatic combat after non-dramatic combat. I want a game where combat is an episodic climax, dramatic and challenging. Not where it is dramatic and challenging one game in six.

Honestly, this is mind-boggling to me that a role-playing game has such restrictions in the style of story you can run built in. I've played a lot of different RPG systems - started off with Shadowrun and White Wolf WoD games. Dipped into CoC. I have played D&D before but it was just one-shots long, long ago (2nd Ed.). Also Warhammer Fantasy Role-play 1st edition, Doctor Who: AiTaS, FFG's Star Wars. All have some assumptions built in but I've never found a game where I was forced to add low-meaning combats just so that the big meaningful combats worked mechanically. I'm finding all this very disheartening. My group expressed interest in playing a fantasy setting game so I bought D&D as the famous classic fantasy game. I'm honestly finding it good in some ways, but rules-wise it seems to be very shaky and odd. I'm about ready to look around for something else except I've spent a whole bunch of money on this product.

Don't get disheartened yet. Play with it more and see how it goes. Build your adventures using story, narrative logic, and integrate combat, exploration and interaction and it will be a fun game. Make all aspects of the game part of the challenge and your players will enjoy it.

Also, lower levels 1-5 ish don't ask as much from the DM.
 

For single encounter bad bad guys it can work but it needs some thinking ahead of time.
Add 1 feat/ASI per 4 CR (save the first four)
Add 1 legendary action per PC above 4.
Mutlitply HP by 1 +0.25 per PC above 4.
Add 1.5 AC (round up) per PC above 4.

That may no seem much. But you'll see a big difference. Your legendary boss/monster/npc should also use every magic items that could be found if it is logical. The 'baron' will use the magical shield/ring/armor in his treasury as well as all the other ones. A potion of speed is available, you bet that he will drink it; so would the dragon/demon or whatever. The lich will have scrolls and will use them. It might even have a few flame skulls around to harrass the players.

Try it and you will see no need to go to an other system. It works out quite fine for my groups.
 

knasser

First Post
Don't get disheartened yet. Play with it more and see how it goes. Build your adventures using story, narrative logic, and integrate combat, exploration and interaction and it will be a fun game. Make all aspects of the game part of the challenge and your players will enjoy it.

Also, lower levels 1-5 ish don't ask as much from the DM.

For single encounter bad bad guys it can work but it needs some thinking ahead of time.
Add 1 feat/ASI per 4 CR (save the first four)
Add 1 legendary action per PC above 4.
Mutlitply HP by 1 +0.25 per PC above 4.
Add 1.5 AC (round up) per PC above 4.

That may no seem much. But you'll see a big difference. Your legendary boss/monster/npc should also use every magic items that could be found if it is logical. The 'baron' will use the magical shield/ring/armor in his treasury as well as all the other ones. A potion of speed is available, you bet that he will drink it; so would the dragon/demon or whatever. The lich will have scrolls and will use them. It might even have a few flame skulls around to harrass the players.

Try it and you will see no need to go to an other system. It works out quite fine for my groups.

Thanks both. I will try out these suggestions.

For context, I'm participating in two threads on this forum right now where the sort of issues I'm seeing are being discussed - this one and the one on ranged combat - that is encounters that take place outside of the 40' room (and cosmetic equivalents). Both are getting buried in people arguing that the solution is to play within the confines of D&D's design assumptions. It's honestly discouraging me a lot from moving forward with 5e. I'm currently looking around for a different fantasy rule system that I can swap in and still keep the same setting I've developed and my players can keep their backgrounds the same. If I'm going to do something radical like that, I should do it as early in the campaign as possible.

I'll try some mock-combats with some leveled up versions of the PCs and see how it goes using your suggestions. Really appreciate your posts.

K.
 

Here is a modified lich my players defeated at 17th level in a previous campaing.
AC: 17 (natural armor + dex) Now 23 (+1.5 AC x 2 for players number, Staff of power and +1 ring. It could go up to 25 for one attack because of the shield guardian and I am not counting shield. Since shield was an at will power, it became and AC 28 and 30 for one attack)
HP: 135 (18d8 + 54) Now 238 for a 1.5 multiplyer for number of players and tough feat (+36hp).
Spd: 30' (unchanged)
Stats: Unchanged (decided to use feats instead...)
Added: Warcaster, Elemental Adept Fire (that one was a surprise for my players), Tough.
Mage feature added: Shield and Mirror image at will (I counted that one as a feat)
Spell list was changed to reflect the added mage feature and feats.
Cantrip: Removed prestigiditation and added Fire Bolt. Rose number of cantrip to four and added Green Flame blade
Level 1: Removed shield and added disguise self (Lich used it to appear human as she did in her life.)
Level 2: Removed Mirror image and added Misty step instead.

Legendary action Rose to 5 (again 6 players)

Lich was also using Staff Of Power And a Shield Guardian.

Now I can tell you that with this armor class; the players were not using -5 to hit. They needed the bless bonus and all the positioning they could get to hit it. Despite the fact that both bard and life cleric were healing whores. The group almost died because I was a wee bit too lucky on the dice that night. That was a fight where players went nova as much as they could and they exhausted every single ability they had. The fight lasted about 12 rounds (if I remember correctly).

The players were all heavy loaded with magic items. That fight is something they will remember for a long time. They won not because they were lucky or that it was easy. They won because they were clever enough to use tactics and positioning. We both loved the way the fight went and they were proud of themselves.

First lich they had encountered had not been modified as such and the fight didn't last 5 rounds. Since I started using these modifications, big bad boss fight have been much more interesting. I do not use these modifications all the time. Only to surprise and keep players on their toes. Is that a superboss? Is that a normal boss? Do we go nova or not?

Now my players are asking themselves these questions. They even use divination magic to learn of the fight techniques of some of their ennemies to have clues if it is a super boss. (talking with one of its dead victim, contacting the nether world and many such things that had been forgotten previously.)
 
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OB1

Jedi Master
I'm currently looking around for a different fantasy rule system that I can swap in and still keep the same setting I've developed and my players can keep their backgrounds the same. If I'm going to do something radical like that, I should do it as early in the campaign as possible.

You may want to try D&D 4e. There is a great podcast call Critical Hit that has been playing in 4e for 7 or 8 years now, and it fits exactly the style you are describing. 4e is in the D&D setting, has the same monsters, and has tons of books already published for everyone to choose from. 4e still expects at least 2 encounters a day, but the CH podcast group doesn't often follow that and ends up with epic (2-4 hour long) combat sequences at the end of a narrative section.

Because while you can mod 5e to fit the style you want, it's never going to fit quite right. But if I may ask, why are you so opposed to trying a different style of play? Or even trying the very simple fix of adding in the occasional surprise combat after the main combat to keep the PCs honest. Stretching into new styles and trying different things allows you to grow as a DM and potentially discover new ways to entertain and challenge your players.

I'd never run 6-8 encounter days prior to 5e, and started off with 2-3 massive ones before trying to run as the rules suggest. What I found was that my players love having a series of quick ToM combats that take 10-15 minutes each to resolve and end the night with a massive grid based battle royale. More importantly, they know that their success or failure in that final battle is dependent on how well they approach and resolve challenges earlier in the mission. And the absolute best is when they approach that final boss battle, knowing that they are depleted but that if they leave for a rest they will fail their primary objective, and pushing on anyhow despite the risk of TPK.
 

BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester
For what it's worth i don't run 6-8 encounters per day. I run 6-8 hours per long rest. Using the gritty Realism Rest variant from the DMG this turns into 1-3 encounters per day for me. Typically 2 encounters. About one encounter per week of adventuring is a big boss or bigg battle type encounter.

It was the simplest solution I found to having an adventure feel more like a Campaign than Diablo 3 run (exaggerating here). We still run the same amount of fights per game night. It just makes it fit the feel I want for my adventures.

I'm still open to changing the rests back to the default, or even the 5 minute short rest variant if the situation calls for it like a big dungeon crawl or a prolonged all day battle.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Honestly, it sounds from what you people are saying that I should be looking for a different game system. I appreciate the suggestions from Rhenny on how to add more encounters and they would be good suggestions as to how to trick the players into playing differently. But I don't want to do that. I don't want a game where I have to keep having non-dramatic combat after non-dramatic combat. I want a game where combat is an episodic climax, dramatic and challenging. Not where it is dramatic and challenging one game in six.
You can, of course, do that in 5e, there's just a few factors you have to take into account. One is whether you (or your players) care about class balance at all. If nobody does, then all you have to worry about is keeping encounters challenging and workable even at 1/day. That's still a challenge, since you'll have everyone throwing down their best tricks, quite possibly, every round of the fight, but it's possible, and you've gotten some good advice on how to swim against the 'fast combat' current built into 5e.

If you do want to impose some class balance in spite of consistently falling far short of the expected 6-8 encounter day, though, don't panic. The classes aren't balanced to begin with, you would have had to do some tweaking and spotlight-roving to achieve it, anyway in reaction to party composition and other player choices, anyway, so it's just going to be party of the usual task of DMing. Just with a different focus.

Party composition could even solve the problem for you: if you end up with a party where everyone has some potent resources to 'nova' in their daily uber-encounter, for instance (or if no one does). If you get the more typical mix of classes, though, you need to forget about resource-management pressure over a long 'day' as a check on the heavy-daily-recharge classes, and find other ways to limit them, and build up the other classes. Rather than focusing on resource pressures to do that, latch onto other aspects of the disfavored PCs to help them shine. If nothing else works, you can always give the overshadowed PC(s) a nifty magic item with an awesome daily function or few.

Honestly, this is mind-boggling to me that a role-playing game has such restrictions in the style of story you can run built in.
They're not restrictions, they're just degrees of freedom that have other implications than just the pacing of you story. You can think of them as 'imbalancing' classes or 'ruining' encounter-building guidelines, or you can think of them as tools that let you leverage and re-balance the PCs and the challenges posed by encounters to better fit your campaign.

I've played a lot of different RPG systems - started off with Shadowrun and White Wolf WoD games. Dipped into CoC.
Those are pretty narrow- style- and feel- focused games.

I've never found a game where I was forced to add low-meaning combats just so that the big meaningful combats worked mechanically. I'm finding all this very disheartening. My group expressed interest in playing a fantasy setting game so I bought D&D as the famous classic fantasy game. I'm honestly finding it good in some ways, but rules-wise it seems to be very shaky and odd. I'm about ready to look around for something else except I've spent a whole bunch of money on this product.
You've certainly come at D&D in an unusual way. Most of us stepped up to 5e with multiple editions under our belts and very clear expectations of what D&D was about. And that has always included managing resources over the course of an adventuring day in one sense or another. As was mentioned above, the closest D&D has ever come to being neutral to pacing issues (and it wasn't that close) was 4e, which put all classes on the same resource schedule and made the 'daily' portion of those resources relatively less significant, allowing the DM to have much 'shorter' days with no impact on class balance and less (though still quite significant) impact on encounter balance. 4e was not well received by the fanbase who came to D&D in the more usual way, with more traditional expectations, and is out of print and not on the OGL that allowed 3.5e to enjoy ongoing 3PP support (and, 3.5 if even further from what you seem to want than is 5e), so it's not the freshest horse to hitch your wagon to at this point. Indeed, as the old saw implies, we really should stop beating it at some point...

...and, as you say, you already sprang for the set of 5e books (the good news is that you don't have to keep buying new ones every month to stay current). So, you might as well make the best of the current, supported edition. IMHO, the best thing you can do when coming to 5e without much of a background in D&D is to get some experience playing with a long-time DM and get a feel for the system. You should have a much easier time of that, being experienced with other RPGs already, but there is an art to running D&D and it's best picked up by playing under a good DM, and, of course, by doing. Fortunately, it's very easy to find current-edition games, just look up AL events in your area....

Good luck!
 
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