D&D 5E last encounter was totally one-sided

Sacrosanct

Legend
A DM like Flamestrike does that with the six to eight encounter day with terrain and environment manipulation. Good for him. I'm not going to fault his method if it works the majority of the time. I'm not going to use that method myself. I want a creature so fearsome you could fight him in a white room and it would be a ridiculously tough fight. I want balors and dragons to be able to shrug off the PCs attacks and make them feel fear when it plows into the middle of a group and starts thrashing around. And 5E monsters as written do not make PC groups feel this fear meaning they don't live up to the billing, not even against regular PCs.

You keep using terms like this which seems to me to be disingenuous because these terms have negative connotations and imply the DM is somehow cheating, or otherwise not following the rules. The DM isn't manipulating the environment. The DM is using the environment like their NPCs/Monsters would use it. Additionally D&D is not assumed to be played in a white room. As i said, if you deviate from the assumed play, then it's on you as the DM to make proper adjustments. I'm not sure why you have refused to acknowledge this when it's been mentioned several times already. It's almost like you don't want to hear it so you can keep complaining about an issue that's largely self inflicted.

I'm using a different method to reach a level of creature power that fits what I believe they should be capable of. Whereas you want to narrate the ancient dragon decimating the orc army, I want to narrate this as backstory and have a dragon mechanically capable of wiping out an orc army..

It is. High level carpet bombing out of range of spells or missile weapons. Or ripping out the stone and rock on a lake to flood the valley where the orc army is camped (a dragon is not a small creature), or scorching the earth around the army, leaving them without supplies or shelter, or forcing a giant herd of animals to stampede right through the encampment, or any other number of things that a dragon is probably smart enough to figure out. These are all things that can be mechanically resolved, all you have to do is determine what chances are to hit, how many would be affected, penalties for starvation, etc, etc. If all you want is to put one stat block up against a bunch of others, then I'm not sure what the point of is that, because that's not how D&D is played. And TBH, I'm glad the designers didn't waste all their time trying to come up with a way of addressing all of that because a) that's not how most people play so it's a waste of time that they could be doing something else better with, and b) focuses on white room balance can actually be a hindrance because it fails to take in all these other factors that happen in actual game play that are significant to the outcome.
 

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In a white room, the 10,000 orcs will be able to attack the dragon. In a "real" "ahem..." simulation it would not be so.

As I said earlier, the dragon will use numerous flyby attacks, breath weapon, start fires and use his fear ability. Everything within a 120' will have to make a wisdom save or be afraid of the dragon. Add the confusion from the smoke and the numerous fires the dragon will cause (without counting those orcs that are affected by the fear aura and running in all directions) then our "little" dragon will have a good time in picking those defenders.

Once the dragon will have a received a significant amount of wounds, it will retreat. Wait an hour, spend healing HD to strike again. Rinse and repeat as long as the dragon needs to or until he can't spend HD anymore.

On the other hand, if the dragon is surprised by a 10,000 orcish army in its lair... it must have been quite a lazy dragon. And anyway, how many orcs can get into an ancient dragon's lair????

Yes there are situations where the white room is useful to see and show that something can be done. It is by no way an absolute perfect simulation. Too many factors will come in. The bigger the numbers in a simulation, the harder it gets to be sure it will work out that way. (quite the reverse of statistics...)

In some situations, the PCs will soundly deafeat the 300 orcish horde, in others it will be the opposite. In the 10,000 orc army scenario, the both outcomes are possibles. In some situations, the army could win, in most it would not. In the white room, the army will always win. Same in the horde scenario.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Have you considered that 5E isnt the game for you,
5e set out to be the game for fans of D&D - regardless of style or past edition preferences (though, FWIW, WotCs research is supposed to have told them that edition-centric fans were very much in the minority) - as Celtavian (and, I think, most of us here) was clearly a fan of D&D before 5e was even being playtested, he's squarely in that target market. You may think you're defending 5e from criticism by suggesting the fault is with the fan and the game's just not 'for him,' but you are, in fact, making a much harsher criticism of the current edition in doing so: you're judging it a failure.

I have to disagree with your assessment.

It just seems like you're set on intentionally playing 5E against several of the conventions that underpin the system, and its not working out for you as a consequence.
There's one underlying convention that trumps all others: DM Empowerment. 5e is meant to be a starting point for the DM. You're meant to make the game your own.

If you're unwilling to play 'with the grain' as it were, perhaps changing systems would be be better?
It might be better for him, but it would be a bad trend for D&D if it were to catch on.

3E and it's derivatives were so dependent on all the numbers adding up. 5E is not like that.
It's hardly a dependence, it's just a design philosophy - one that 5e doesn't follow, leaving it more open design space, but making design less, well, systematic.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
It's hardly a dependence, it's just a design philosophy - one that 5e doesn't follow, leaving it more open design space, but making design less, well, systematic.

So then what distinction are you citing? Dependence versus design philosophy...what do you see as the difference?

I saw the 3E design as an attempt to codify almost everything about the game. They tried to have rules and formulae for every aspect of the game. I would say that they did indeed depend on this.

5E is so often cited as a shift of focus on rulings not rules. Do you not agree with that?
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
So then what distinction are you citing? Dependence versus design philosophy...what do you see as the difference?
The latter implies the game will shatter like glass if you deviate from it, the former leaves some room for flexibility.

5E is so often cited as a shift of focus on rulings not rules.
That's emphasized, yes, and, IMHO, it's the current ed's greatest strength.

At the same time we've also got 'dependence on'/'design philosophy of' Bounded Accuracy and encounters/day and CR - though they don't exactly 'add up' as neatly/intuitively as in the other modern eds.
 
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Sacrosanct

Legend
I guess one of my biggest beefs with designing the game so something like a dragon is pretty much immune to an army of orcs in a white room is that you end up with 3e, where you've got +38323/+38321/+3322/+3232 bonuses to hit against an AC of 340302023.

OK, that's hyperbole, but you get the point. And no thanks.
 

I would not want to go back to those days.

I am glad that 5ed is the way it is now. I do not want to see it evolve in that direction again.
But the hyperbolic reference made my day. :)
 

mpwylie

First Post
Smart enough? Really? So are all the people playing a more complex game like Pathfinder/3E or GURPS just smart enough to understand the rules, but not smart enough to modify 5E? Because you know, modifying 5E takes such a high level of intelligence? I don't think criticisms of 5E have anything to do with the intelligence of the persons making the criticisms or their lack of willingness to modify the game. I think some of us making criticisms just don't like the new paradigm like the three to five round by design combats. They feel unsatisfying and anticlimactic. I don't call you unintelligent and uninspired because you enjoy such things, I would hope you would refrain from calling people with legitimate criticisms about the 5E game system unintelligent.

Sorry but I am struggling to find other explanations. The OP posts up this post as his anecdotal proof that the game is broken, but in his example he admits it was a single encounter and not 1 of 6-8 a day. He acknowledges that his player's characters are built, outfitted, and played above the base assumptions. He picks some fairly powerful creatures then plays them horribly, he put no thought into using any type of tactics or designing his encounter with even simple terrain and strategy, and did no prep to know what his monsters could do, then whines about how the system is broken.

The system is designed for the lowest common denominator. Inexperienced players, 6-8 encounters, low/no magic. I think this was a good choice because it targets new players and as a system is much easier to manipulate from that baseline upwards to accommodate various ranges of experience and play-styles than it is to start at a higher level and then have new players trying to tweak the system downward. So you have this system set at the base, then you give your players a bunch of magic, run 1-2 encounters an adventure day, and fail to design your encounters to ultilize terrain, startegy, and the creatures abilties effectively and then complain that the system is at fault. You complain that monsters like Marilith's and Balor's don't have enough abilities but they are lacking because of your game design and play of them. If your characters are walking into a fight with a single Marilith as there 1 to 2 encounters per day and are all decked out with Magic, then yes the Marilith is woefully outmatched. But let's think about it, Truesight (a strong ability), resistance to non-magic weapons (strong if your players don't all have magic weapons like the game is designed), 7 attacks per round, one of which is a tail attack that grapples the target which can be the first attack granting advantage for all the rest of the attacks that round (very strong ability), can Parry as a reaction to increase their AC to 23 for an attack and is reactionary so can do them once every single turn in a round, magic resistance, Teleport, and solid saves. I have used this monster in an encounter with a couple lesser henchmen and it was no cakewalk for my group. I adequately used it abilities, I designed the encounter in a way where I could the terrain and it's abilities optimally for best results.

So maybe you can better explain exactly what the issue is cause I am just not seeing it. I guess I do see it, you want to play the game completely different than it is built and in that case, yes it is broken for YOU, but that's your fault not the system's. If you have a Ferrari and then try to use it as a dumptruck, don't go whining that Ferrari's are junk cause you can't haul dirt with it. Either play the game as it is designed or understand that you, as the DM, will have to tweak it for your style of play and you, as DM, will need to play your encounters to a level that is consistent with your players. And again, they have given you all the tools to do this, they just aren't doing it for you because they want the game accessible to new/returning inexperienced players.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
And again, they have given you all the tools to do this, they just aren't doing it for you because they want the game accessible to new/returning inexperienced players.
Though I'm obviously in agreement about the nature of 5e - it's a starting point, you make it your own, &c - I have to quibble* with implying equivalency between new and returning players. Returning players, like long-time players, have definite expectations of D&D that 5e went out of it's way (more like back into it's old ways) to meet. New players don't have those expectations (if they have any at all) of D&D but may well have some based on their exposure to some slice of the fantasy genre in other media (like movies, books, and, of course, MMOs).

5e meets the expectations of long-time & returning players pretty well.










* hmmm... twice in a row, just in this thread... maybe I don't really /need/ to quibble quite so much...
 
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hawkeyefan

Legend
The latter implies the game will shatter like glass if you deviate from it, the former leaves some room for flexibility.

Okay, fair enough, I suppose. I think that the 3E system does kind of come apart if you stop using the math, but if you skipped a few things, you can get away with it. I know as a DM I definitely discarded a couple of the formulae for ease of use, but those were more behind the scenes ones like XP budgets and so on. More player facing ones are trickier.

If you just do away with that design element then I feel like you're fundamentally changing the game, no?

It seems like we pretty much agree, and it's just a matter of semantics.
 

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