Lasting Frost

[Mirkurnas]

So any target you hit, while having this feat, with a power which includes the cold keyword gain vulnerable cold 5 until the end of your next turn.

Since it says "any target you hit' does the extra 5 damage apply to the damage you make with the power that triggers this feat?

 

[KarinsDad]

No.

The feat applies to all attacks after being activated.

 

[Goolpsy]

No.

The feat applies to all attacks after being activated.

I would think the answer to be "yes"

You hit with cold --> Activated
Cold Damage --> +5 from vulnerability

no?
Its when you hit its activated, and you hit before you deal damage? or?

 

[KarinsDad]

I would think the answer to be "yes"

You hit with cold --> Activated
Cold Damage --> +5 from vulnerability

no?
Its when you hit its activated, and you hit before you deal damage? or?

Attacks are simultaneous.

The general rule is that if an attack hits, it does the damage determined by the hit (shy of an immediate interupt disrupting the damage, but that is an exception to the normal rules, specific beats general). The DMG even indicates that a player should roll both at once.

The general rule is not if an attack hits, it adds properties to the attack and then the damage is calculated based on those new properties.

Nothing in Lasting Frost indicates that the Vulnerability applies to the current attack. The vulnerability applies because of the successful attack, not to the successful attack.

 

[Malicea]

The general rule is that if an attack hits, it does the damage determined by the hit (shy of an immediate interupt disrupting the damage, but that is an exception to the normal rules, specific beats general). The DMG even indicates that a player should roll both at once.

The general rule is not if an attack hits, it adds properties to the attack and then the damage is calculated based on those new properties.

Do you have a page reference for this general rule? I don't seem to be able to find anything that explicitly states the sequence in which damage and effects of an attack that hits have to be resolved.

 

[KarinsDad]

Do you have a page reference for this general rule? I don't seem to be able to find anything that explicitly states the sequence in which damage and effects of an attack that hits have to be resolved.

When you hit, you usually deal damage and sometimes produce some other effect.

Page 276. There is no sequence. Both occur simultaneously. So, assigning the Vulnerability before the Damage in order to make extra Damage occur would be giving them a sequence (and a sequence in the opposite order of this sentence).

There are interupts in the game system that can modify the damage, but Lasting Frost does not state that it is an interrupt that interrupts damage taking.

Now, one specific interpretation of the Vulnerability rules might allow for it, but no other game mechanic in the system outside of an interrupt allows a PC to modify damage based on an effect applied during the damage.


Additionally, +5 damage on every such attack is too potent compared to other feats like +1 per tier, or +3 damage for (the situational) Sly Hunter. It's like giving a bonus of +5 damage equivalent to a 21st level magical weapon, but at level 11 (plus this damage adds to magical weapon damage). That is extremely powerful and most likely, not RAI. Forcing the damage on secondary and latter attacks (if they all hit) is more balanced. This would appear to be RAI.


Because so many builds use Lasting Frost, WotC should make a definitive FAQ ruling, but it seems reasonable that they will rule that the Vulnerabilities have to apply before an attack because that is what RAI appears to be and is more balanced with other damaging adding feats and effects. YMMV.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Page 276. There is no sequence. Both occur simultaneously. So, assigning the Vulnerability before the Damage in order to make extra Damage occur would be giving them a sequence (and a sequence in the opposite order of this sentence).

Would you see any difference in the resolution of Hypothetical Power X (Cold) and Hypothetical Power Y (Cold) with the following hit entries?

Hit: The target gains vulnerable cold 5 until the end of your next turn, and you deal 1d6 cold damage.

and

Hit: You deal 1d6 cold damage, and the target gains vulnerable cold 5 until the end of your next turn.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

Would you see any difference in the resolution of Hypothetical Power X (Cold) and Hypothetical Power Y (Cold) with the following hit entries?

Hit: The target gains vulnerable cold 5 until the end of your next turn, and you deal 1d6 cold damage.

and

Hit: You deal 1d6 cold damage, and the target gains vulnerable cold 5 until the end of your next turn.

I think such a differentiation would be pure inference not based on explicit rules.

One cannot discern meaning based on a presumed sequence where one is not explicitly called out. The first sentence is not explicit in it's meaning beyond the fact that both of these occur, any more than the second sentence is. Hence, simultaneous as far as we can tell.

 

[Yaezakura]

While there doesn't seem to be any set distinction for the sequence of the effects an attack does being applied, unless the attack specifically calls for them, we're left to use the sheer powers of logic and common sense.

The feat is called "Lasting Frost", which, after hitting an opponent with a Cold attack, makes them vulnerable to Cold damage for a short time. Judging on the name, this stems from the fact that your previous Cold attack left a thin sheen of frost coating the target, keeping it's temperature lower than normal and making it more susceptible to future Cold attacks. Common sense would dictate that if they haven't yet taken damage from your Cold attack, nothing has happened to coat them in frost.

So... no. It wouldn't work on your first Cold attack. Until you've already hit and damaged them, there's simply no frost there to enhance the attack.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hence, simultaneous as far as we can tell.

But if it's simultaneous, then at the same time as the creature takes damage from the power with the cold descriptor, he has vulnerable cold 5.

-Hyp.