Law chaos and honesty in the Savage Tide (no spoilers)

[S'mon]

As others have said, I'm not really seeing the 'lying' here. From your Chaotic PC's perspective, he's living a lie. From a lawful perspective he's upholding the law and good order in the best way available.

 

[Herobizkit]

Well, what is his other aspect?

If he is Lawful Good, I don't see why he'd willingly go along with such a ruse. If his other party members agreed to treat him like the Captain and introduced him as Captain, the LG might be able to get away with saying nothing and let the ruse happen. If directly asked by an actual crew member, he probably wouldn't be so helpful.

If he is Lawful Neutral or Evil, game on. The LN will do whatever is necssary to keep order on the ship, while the LE will do whatever to ensure he STAYS in that capacity.

By the by, what happened to the actual captain?

 

[Celebrim]

"If he is Lawful Good, I don't see why he'd willingly go along with such a ruse. If his other party members agreed to treat him like the Captain and introduced him as Captain..."

Then he is the Captain. Assuming that the party owns the boat or has been delegated authority over the boat by its lawful owner, as soon as they introduce someone as 'the Captain' he is the ship's Master and can probably prove he was acting as such in a court of law. In fact, since it was said that the character was of a nautical inclination he might be recognized as entitled to some legal rank as a sailor ('Master Mariner', for example), and between that and the fact that he has been at minimum publically recognized as the ship's Captain, there are probably situations (emergencies in which the security of the boat and crew were at stake) in which he can go over the heads of even the ship's owners - that would be the rest of the party.

The problem with 'terms of art' is that alot of the time, lacking any more substantial document, the simple testimony that someone was acting as such and were recognized in this capacity (and had a legal right to it) is as good as a legal instrument. That's why you often can't just say you are married, live together like you are married, and then after 15 years say, "We were never married."

 

[Kahuna Burger]

If said Captain orders you flogged, the owners could hold an emergency meeting to remove him from the post, but otherwise - assuming the world's 'common law of the sea' recognizes the right of the captain's of vessels to flog the crew (which it might not except in the case of commissed captains aboard military vessels) - then you get flogged.

er, no, then the captain gets his ass kicked from here to next tuesday by the rest of the party and thrown overboard. He is playing captain to give the crew a clear chain of command and make things happen quickly in an emergency. He has exactly zero authority over the rest of the party.

But it is exactly this sort of attitude towards his position (that by letting him have the title Captain he actually becomes superior to the rest of the party in any situation other than "move that rope") that has my character dissatisfied with the situation.

Ships don't sail very well when run by committee.

When you take a vote on every change in the rigging? Of course not. Running a ship in terms of deciding where it will go, making discipline decisions, preparing battle plans and training, provisioning, etc? There is no reason on earth that one single person must have THE authority on any of those matters and no reason for it to all be the same person even then. When we crewed the ship, sailor boy talked about what kind of specialists he wanted, and my character vetted them for "moral acceptability". Either one of us could have vetoed a particular crewman, and there was no need to have one of use have the final say. We both had the final say and people got on who satisfied both of us. In other words, crewing was done by committee and it worked just fine.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

We'll see once the chaotic character flips him the bird infront of the crew and see if he has him disciplined or not.

Well, Ellie wouldn't do that because she's quite nice, but any attempt on his part to "have a party member disciplined" would end badly for him. really, really badly.....

 

[painandgreed]

Well, Ellie wouldn't do that because she's quite nice, but any attempt on his part to "have a party member disciplined" would end badly for him. really, really badly.....

Exactly, and anyway, the lawful character probably not ready to ditch the party to become a captain of this. What happens once the crew figures out that the Captain's old friends aren't really crew? I don't see things changing much because none of the crew are going to mistake themselves for anything else and the only people who can get away with stuff (and are probably much higher level than the crew) will probably support the captain. Even if the lawfulness of the "captain" demanding that they are the captain butts heads with the chaotic "we're all equals", the crew will still just be the crew unless there is an actual party break.

 

[Celebrim]

er, no, then the captain gets his ass kicked from here to next tuesday by the rest of the party and thrown overboard.

That would be the emergency meeting of the owners of the ship, and subsequent ejection of the Captain from his post that I mentioned.

But in the eyes of the crew, you aren't anyone special. I would assume that you haven't been asserting your rights as coowner of the ship in front of the crew? And assuming you can't beat the grapple checks from a pair of burlies and nobody shows up to rescue you and assume that the crew recognizes the right of a merchant captain to administer floggings, then well, you get flogged.

Aboard a ship, it's bad form to give an order to a Captain, even if you outrank him (since technically, you don't until you get off the ship). But, if you do outrank him, you can direct the Captain to see that certain things are done. If you are feeling a bit socially snubbed, I suggest you fight fire with fire.

He has exactly zero authority over the rest of the party.

It's not nearly as clear cut as that.

But it is exactly this sort of attitude towards his position (that by letting him have the title Captain he actually becomes superior to the rest of the party in any situation other than "move that rope") that has my character dissatisfied with the situation.

Speaking as a DM, I would not expect nor want it to play out any other way.

From the perspective of a Lawful assume the role of Captain, he actually becomes superior to the rest of the party in any situation that has to do with running the ship.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

That would be the emergency meeting of the owners of the ship, and subsequent ejection of the Captain from his post that I mentioned.

But in the eyes of the crew, you aren't anyone special. I would assume that you haven't been asserting your rights as coowner of the ship in front of the crew? And assuming you can't beat the grapple checks from a pair of burlies and nobody shows up to rescue you and assume that the crew recognizes the right of a merchant captain to administer floggings, then well, you get flogged.

Yes, a person with access to stronger thugs can administer a beating to anyone they choose. (in this case, no, it wouldn't work). Calling such a beating a "flogging" and pretending you have the right to do it doesn't make it any less thuggery if you do not have real authority over the person you are having beat.

Aboard a ship, it's bad form to give an order to a Captain, even if you outrank him (since technically, you don't until you get off the ship). But, if you do outrank him, you can direct the Captain to see that certain things are done. If you are feeling a bit socially snubbed, I suggest you fight fire with fire.

Nope, form can go jump in a lake. Ellie is not feeling socially snubbed, she is feeling that a practical setup is going to sailor boy's head and he is having delusions of authority where he does not in fact possess it.

It's not nearly as clear cut as that.

It really, really is.

Speaking as a DM, I would not expect nor want it to play out any other way.

From the perspective of a Lawful assume the role of Captain, he actually becomes superior to the rest of the party in any situation that has to do with running the ship.

No, he becomes superior to the party in any practical matter involving the mechanical working of the ship. Not the running of it. His position in regards to the rest of the party could be better described as a sailing master. And more importantly, if he can't hold to that, that true position will be made clear to everyone else on board and he can work a little harder to manage his sailors without the fancy captain title.

Not that this actually has much to do with law chaos and honesty, but it is giving me some insight into the PCs delusions.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Exactly, and anyway, the lawful character probably not ready to ditch the party to become a captain of this. What happens once the crew figures out that the Captain's old friends aren't really crew? I don't see things changing much because none of the crew are going to mistake themselves for anything else and the only people who can get away with stuff (and are probably much higher level than the crew) will probably support the captain. Even if the lawfulness of the "captain" demanding that they are the captain butts heads with the chaotic "we're all equals", the crew will still just be the crew unless there is an actual party break.

Ellie will probably be quietly and privately letting various high level members of the crew in on the actual heirarchy around here and asking them to help keep discipline with the rest of the crew, but they should know the truth, etc etc. (for instance, if something happened to the captain, the Mate would take over the practical running of the ship but would not "take command" of the ship and needs to know that.)

 

[Celebrim]

Yes, a person with access to stronger thugs can administer a beating to anyone they choose. (in this case, no, it wouldn't work). Calling such a beating a "flogging" and pretending you have the right to do it doesn't make it any less thuggery if you do not have real authority over the person you are having beat.

As far as the 'thugs' are concerned, he has real authority. They've no reason to believe otherwise.

Nope, form can go jump in a lake. Ellie is not feeling socially snubbed, she is feeling that a practical setup is going to sailor boy's head and he is having delusions of authority where he does not in fact possess it.

It seems to me that you've delegated the authority and just haven't yet fully realized that in fact that you have. Likewise, you seem to think that 'form' has no power, and in fact in the absence of contridicting evidence, form is considered the thing itself.

No, he becomes superior to the party in any practical matter involving the mechanical working of the ship. Not the running of it. His position in regards to the rest of the party could be better described as a sailing master.

Would you look up the terms 'sailing master' and 'captain' with respect to the merchant marine in say wiki, and then get back to me on that.

And more importantly, if he can't hold to that, that true position will be made clear to everyone else on board and he can work a little harder to manage his sailors without the fancy captain title.

His true position is 'Captain'. It may be that he is only Captain at the sufferance of his co-owners, and that he can be unmade Captain at any time. The status of the party as co-owners of the vessel should have been made clear at the time. This would have in no way under-mined anyone's authority as Captain.

But what you cannot do is delegate the responcibility of Ship's Master to someone and not give them the authority at the same time. Whoever is handling the responcibility also has the authority. A person with responcibility has authority by virtue of that responciblity, and a person that forgoes responcibility losing authority over whatever area of responcibility that they relinquished.

I'd go from thier to a political rant, but this isn't the place.

Not that this actually has much to do with law chaos and honesty, but it is giving me some insight into the PCs delusions.

It has alot to do with law and chaos. You keep claiming that he doesn't have authority unless you recognize that authority. That's a very 'chaotic' position to take.