Law vs. Chaos - the forgotten conflict

[Bad Paper]

I do not believe that true evil--and I mean evil, not just "selfishness" or "not doing good"--has any right or need to exist, or should be tolerated.

examples, please? I'm pretty sure that I can conflate any example of yours into a category of "just damn selfish," so be careful.

And yeah, for all your talk of aspiring to be NG, well, that sure sounds like an NG believer. Mouseferatu the Benefactor!

Extreme law and extreme chaos enable good and evil to happen (as in the selective enforcement example above, or obviously in the Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law sense). But ya know, the same can be said for extreme Good and extreme Evil. Each can be a wellspring of Law or Chaos.

What if you were required by law to submit proof that you brushed your teeth three times daily, flossed once daily, and did eighteen minutes of tongue exercises throughout the day? On the third Thursday of alternate months you must submit--in triplicate--notarized copies of your dental exam results, random samples of expectorated toothpaste foam, and grocery receipts with your toothbrush purchases highlighted in green (not yellow) highlighter. Failure means an intensive two-hour dental exam, cleaning, and dental care training, followed by an essay test. It's for your own Good.

Can you honestly say that there is anything Evil about that situation? Because there isn't. Too much law is bad in itself, period. I could try to cook up a too much chaos situation, but since we're all on the inherently chaotic internet, I'm sure we can each come up with our own.

 

[TheCrazyMuffinMan]

In order to do a Law vs Chaos themed campaign right, you have to be able to present it in such a way that the players end up deciding who are the villains. And while harder to pull off than a Good vs Evil campaign, it can be more rewarding. The tricky thing is to avoid setting one side up as a straw man, which just ends up being a Good vs Evil campaign with some name swapping. It is even harder to do if you set up both sides of the conflict as being legitimately Good.

Lawful Evil vs Chaotic Evil Campaign Idea:
A totalitarian regime that had been enslaving cannibalistic Orcs is attacked by the cannibalistic Orcs. Do the players end the slavery or prevent non combatants from being eaten by assisting in the enslavement of a sentient race.

Lawful Good vs Chaotic Good Idea:
An expanding but just kingdom is stricken by a disease which will cause the deaths of thousands. A cure can be made from the ashes of an immortal species of tree which is held to be sacred by a local fringe religion. These trees cannot reproduce. Do the players try to cure a dangerous but otherwise mundane plague, or do they destroy something obviously sacred and irreplacible?

it took me about 15 minutes to come up with Lawful Good vs Chaotic Good situation that did not seem like an outright strawman to me, and even the one I came up with is reasonably lame.

END COMMUNICATION

Your LG v CG one would also be a shining example of a primarily diplomatic, rather than combative conflict (although in really heinous circumstances, it may devolve into such unless a neutral party (no pun intended) intervenes as a mediator).

 

[udalrich]

Clerics get two major class abilities segregated by their GvE alignment.

I've started developing a LvC campaign. I know that Paladins will get a minor rewrite (to be LAWFUL Good instead of Lawful GOOD). Does anybody have ideas about how to modify a cleric to deemphasize GvE? Are there other classes that need/should be modified for such a campaign?

 

[Mouseferatu]

examples, please? I'm pretty sure that I can conflate any example of yours into a category of "just damn selfish," so be careful.

Um, no. I'm sorry, but I'm not getting into a debate on what is/isn't "true" evil on a messageboard. Not only is it difficult (albeit not impossible) to do without violating either the "no religion" or "no politics" rule, but it's just as loaded a concept. And I have no interest in arguing "Crime A is worse than/more justifiable than Crime B," or "Historical Bastard was acting out of pure selfishness vs. other motivations."

I will say, however, that I didn't mean "true evil" isn't, or cannot come from, "selfishness." A doesn't always equal B, but it can. As with so much else, there's a degree. Selfishness to a point isn't evil at all. Selfishness past a certain point is evil, but not significantly so. Selfishness beyond a farther point is true evil of the sort to which I referred. So being able to say, "Well, X can be boiled down to selfishness" in no way invalidates it as evil.

(In the above paragraph, assume that in all cases, "selfishness" refers not just to the emotion, but to actions taken to further said emotion.)

What if you were required by law to submit proof that you brushed your teeth three times daily, flossed once daily, and did eighteen minutes of tongue exercises throughout the day? On the third Thursday of alternate months you must submit--in triplicate--notarized copies of your dental exam results, random samples of expectorated toothpaste foam, and grocery receipts with your toothbrush purchases highlighted in green (not yellow) highlighter. Failure means an intensive two-hour dental exam, cleaning, and dental care training, followed by an essay test. It's for your own Good.

See, I would call that evil, albeit a very mild form of evil, one tied up in the waste of resources better spent elsewhere, and the denial of personal freedoms without just cause. But now we're splitting semantic hairs. Is something evil because it's harmful, or is it harmful because it's evil?

We've also reached the point of arguing clearly absurd hypotheticals, which--to me--says it's time to take a break from the discussion.

 

[Sol.Dragonheart]

Are Law and Chaos truly opposing forces to one another in the same sense as Good and Evil, though? That is the first question I would have to ask myself, especially on the level of the personal, character sense, before I would commit to creating scenarios that brought the two forces into opposition with one another.

To me, it really seems like Law and Chaos in the D&D alignment system are more of a method that is used to reach the desired end, while the end and the motivation of the character is defined by the GNE axis. In other words, your alignment, if Good, will indicate a character who is altruistic, caring, and willing to make sacrifices in order to help others.

Chaos and Law applied to this may cause a differing opinion and method on how best to go about fulfilling the desired goal that the Good alignment has in mind, but the primary motivation remains the same. A CG and LG character would rarely if ever come into true conflict with one another because of this, and the same is actually true of the other four axises on the Chaotic and Lawful alignments.

As long as the primary goal and motivations of the characters are the same, as in a LN and CN dedicated to a particular nation or goal, a LE and CE character dedicated to the conquering and domination of a particular region or group, the only conflict that I see Law and Chaos providing for is simply on how best to achieve the goal. It does not, in other words, ever provide conflict on the actual goal itself, which makes creating true issues around this very difficult, and in fact generally impractical and unfeasible.

I think the GNE axis is the crux of the D&D alignment system, and the LNE axis is merely a flavor, or fluff factor adding into that system to help further define and detail character personality types and methodologies.

 

[Quartz]

Jeez! 85 posts and no-one's mentioned the Order of the Stick yet? Miko? The lawyers?

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

Law v. Chaos = Fun campaign

I've started developing a LvC campaign. I know that Paladins will get a minor rewrite (to be LAWFUL Good instead of Lawful GOOD). Does anybody have ideas about how to modify a cleric to deemphasize GvE? Are there other classes that need/should be modified for such a campaign?

I ran just such a campaign from around 1986/87 until 2000 (about 13 years) and it was very enjoyable.

• Good and Evil does not exist. It's banished from the rules. Note that beings may still behave in ways that we the players may call "Evil" or "Good" but no game mechanic exists.

• Substitute Law for Good and Chaos for Evil in spells, magic items, abilities, etc. For example, Paladins Detect Chaos and Turn Chaotic Outsiders.

• Devils are Angels of Death and Misery sent to aid the righteous and punish the wicked.

• Wizards are highly educated, have an extensive internship, and are licensed much like real-world medical doctors (Modern, Mediæval, & Ancient).

• Sorcery is illegal and highly feared because it cannot be controlled.

• Outlawry and Excommunication are effectivley the same thing — an individual is cast out of society and my be maimed or killed at will.

• Healing is empathic/vampiric, e.g. a cleric incurs 8 points of damage for every 8 points of damage "healed."

• Spells which charm, beguile, dominate, possess, etc. are illegal.

There are many interesting roleplaying opportunities. PCs may sympathize with Chaotic/Good outlaws opposing a Lawful/Evil government. Alternately, PCs may align themselves LE authorities who will at least keep their word.

Oh and of course tyranny and fascism find this fertile soil. Those in power justify the evil actions as preserving Law & Order and keep the populace in fear. "It is a sad day indeed when free men willingly forsake their liberty in exchange for the illusion of security." By the same token, Chaotic freedom fighters may find themselves slipping into Chaotic/Evil.

Of course the cosmic irony of it all is that Evil and Good do indeed exist in the universe, it's just that the people are so caught up Law versus Chaos that they don't realize they are playing into the hands of the Evil One. Good PCs can and typically take the middle road, trying to keep the balance between extreme Law and extreme Chaos and turn the focus to Good versus Evil. In this campaign, I introduced a Pacifist Priest core class who would invoke non-empathic miracles. This got the attention of a lot of people who came to realize what it means to be Good which isn't always Lawful and is sometimes Chaotic.

Salvandorum paucitas, damnadorum multitudo (Few saved, many damned)

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Your LG v CG one would also be a shining example of a primarily diplomatic, rather than combative conflict (although in really heinous circumstances, it may devolve into such unless a neutral party (no pun intended) intervenes as a mediator).

Very true. Unless both sides were absolutely unable to negotiate, it would be a very heated, but otherwise non violent conflict. Thats the truly infuriating thing about Lawful Good / Neutral Good / Chaotic Good. Because all of these are Good alignments, it is very difficult to figure out a situation where the conflict would erupt into violence, without one side or another essentially acting in a manner one could describe as Evil.

If you are willing to look at things a bit differently, you could say that the Law / Chaos axis is in general more likely to make the Good / Evil Axis take actions that are contradictory to the Good / Evil part of the alignment.

- Lawful Evil beings are capable of acting Good due to their Lawful tendencies.
- Chaotic Evil beings tend to fight among themselves which can cause a gain for the general Good.
- Chaotic Good beings disregarding laws will conflict with Lawful Good types
- Lawful good beings following conflicting laws may come into conflict, comitting evil acts in the process.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Felix]

And this is because, if the forces of Good won a complete victory over Evil, the multiverse would continue to exist. Likewise, if Evil vanquished Good.

But if Law were to win over Chaos, Time would stand still. Nothing would change, move, or live. Absolute zero (-273 degrees). If Chaos wins, then there is no order. Just Nothingness. Flashes of being, which then melt away. Random existance. Things existing everywhere and nowhere, continuously, and simultaneously. Like Schrödinger's cat, both dead and alive. Neither place is particularly conducive to mere mortal life.

If you've read your Sepulchrave, your Chaos victory sounds like his Infinite Becoming.

Doesn't sound as bad when you put it that way, eh?