Law vs. Chaos - the forgotten conflict

[Thurbane]

OK, allow me to air a grievance.

Why do we bother having Law and Chaos components to alignment in D&D when 95% of time and product is devoted to Good vs. Evil?

When was the last time we saw a published product primarily devoted to Law vs. Chaos? Only two readily spring to mind (and please, please correct me if I'm wrong) are The Rod of Seven Parts boxed adventure and The Great Modron March.

BoED? Yep? Book of Anarachic Deeds? Book of Axiomatic Deeds? Nope.

Feats? Plenty of + X vs. Evil or bonus to X if you're Good. Law/Chaos? Precious few.

Fiends and angels? Bucketloads. Lawful/Chaotic archetypes? A handful of Inevitables and Slaadi.

Prestige classes - the only remotely Lawful or Chaotic related PrCs I've seen have been 3rd party.

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OK, now on to the constructive part of my post...

Can anyone point me towards any material, preferrably WotC (but 3rd party is OK too) that focuses on the conflict of Law vs. Chaos? The Shadow/Vorlon conflict in Babylon 5 seemed to deal with LvC themes quite well, for instance, but I'm looking for all things D20 fantasy/D&D related.

Is anyone interested in joining me on a project to write up some new LvC mateiral: feats, PrCs, monsters, adventures, spells, magic etc.

HELP ME HELP LAW VS CHAOS NOT BE THE POOR COUSIN TO GOOD VS EVIL!

- Thanks, T

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I think WotC needs to come up with a good, usable definition of "law" and chaos before they can do anything with it.

Too often I hear that "lawful villains use the law to screw you over" which is so untrue. Murder is always illegal, yet lawful villains do that all the time. Lawful characters follow codes of some kind; omerta is one such code (and is definitely illegal). "Law" is also used to screw over paladins in reasonable campaigns (as opposed to good; paladin players rarely have trouble with that).

I think law would have been called "order" except it's a bit difficult to say someone is "order neutral".

Check some 2e Planescape stuff. Maybe there's something for you there. There's several "lawful" and chaotic factions to look at, and I think some of the chaotic factions are even sane!

 

[Vorput]

I always thought an entire campaign world split along the law/chaos lines would be awesome... paladins working with devils and monks to stop the bards, barbarians, and their slaad allies...

The only way I saw it working is if everyone shared the same religion, and the argument was core to some way they interpret it... and even that seemed rather unbelievable.

I sympathize with your rant though.

 

[Ry]

Um, isn't the entire Age of Worms adventure path in reference to the ancient Law vs. Chaos conflict? There's been lots of mention of Obyriths and Vaati and ancient Baatorians in Dungeon and Dragon magazine, and characters like the Archomentals picking sides in that conflict.

Good ol' Dungeon and Dragon Magazine. Glad we can always count on you to deliver the goods, even if the WotC material has started to drift.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well, in the many and various alignment threads that happen around here, I'm always trying to point out the double standards around alignment. Good vs. Evil is always taking centre stage compared to Law vs. Chaos, even in general discussion. Not only that, Good is usually held to much more strict standards than Evil, Chaos or Law. If anyone should have strict standards, it's Law. You always see people posting about how one evil act can make your alignment jump straight to Evil (Do not pass Neutral, do not collect 200 gp), but when it comes to law vs. chaos, they can overlook a lawful character sticking up for the individual once in a while, or a chaotic character performing acts that uphold structure during his moments of weakness. They certainly don't think that one good act can shift you from Evil to Good the way you can get whacked down into Evil by the mightly hammer of DM caprice. To them, I say this:

And the Grinch, with his grinch-feet ice-cold in the snow,
Stood puzzling and puzzling: "How could it be so?
It came without ribbons! It came without tags!
"It came without packages, boxes or bags!"
And he puzzled three hours, `till his puzzler was sore.
Then the Grinch thought of something he hadn't before!
"Maybe Christmas," he thought, "doesn't come from a store.
"Maybe Christmas...perhaps...means a little bit more!"

And what happened then...?
Well...in Who-ville they say
That the Grinch's small heart
Grew three sizes that day!


So there.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Um, isn't the entire Age of Worms adventure path in reference to the ancient Law vs. Chaos conflict?

Not really. It mentions it in passing as a fairly unrelated plot that springboards you into the real plot, which is your typical end-of-the-world-by-dark-overlord scenario.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I always thought an entire campaign world split along the law/chaos lines would be awesome... paladins working with devils and monks to stop the bards, barbarians, and their slaad allies...

The only way I saw it working is if everyone shared the same religion, and the argument was core to some way they interpret it... and even that seemed rather unbelievable.

It's not that unbelievable. Think of orthodoxy versus mysticism. Structure and received wisdom versus individual enlightenment. This comes up in the Tales of Wyre, and is especially troublesome to the paladin when his own god shifts the focus of the One True Religion from Law to Chaos, presumably because the god had got as far with Law as he thought was necessary, and figured that his followers would benefit from some more free-form spiritual growth.

 

[Kaodi]

Law and chaos are subservient to good and evil in the real world. Was it not one of the primary novelties of Greyhawk that law and chaos were raised to the level of good and evil? Certainly, it makes interesting material for D&D, but do not look at it as some kind of dire failing of the designers that they have been more inclined to dwell on the conflict that is naturally more important to them.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Is anyone interested in joining me on a project to write up some new LvC mateiral: feats, PrCs, monsters, adventures, spells, magic etc.

HELP ME HELP LAW VS CHAOS NOT BE THE POOR COUSIN TO GOOD VS EVIL!

- Thanks, T

unfortunately, simply adding material may not help because LvC as the poor cousin to GvE is pretty much written into the cosmology. The supposed importance of the blood war aside, fiendish DR is overcome by Good. Celestials with both Good and Chaotic subtypes only get detect evil at will, not detect law, have auras that do magic circle against evil, etc. Clerics get two major class abilities segregated by their GvE alignment.

If you want to equalize, or have some fun and switch the importance balance the other way, you basicly are looking at a major homebrew and alternate cosmology. Which, it so happens, I've been kicking around some ideas on. But I'm not sure you're looking at anything that comprehensive yourself.

 

[Slife]

One of the problems with this conflict is that most aspects that define law and chaos are identical.