Lawful Good Tyranny - How would this look?

[adwyn]

Keep in mind that it really takes very little tyranny exerted over their characters to drive most players to violence so there is no need to over do it.


I developed such a state on the granny and librarian model. There was no need to have Paladins on every corner, instead all "improper" actions were immediately corrected with lectures and improper speech met with a loud "Shush". If the players insisted on trying to shout down someone the NPCs would join in song to drown them out. Violence would finally bring the paladins and clerics to drag the miscreants off to rehabilitation.

Of course not everyone can be so pure, it just takes some work to find the hidden underbelly of such a society.

 

[Ferret]

I could imagine such a society being some what like communism, now that the 'Bill of Duties' was mentioned. Also if you do have a lot of prisoners, they can work labour camps, possibly making it possible for people to attend regular prayer sessions/sermons etc.

 

[FireLance]

Remember, in a Lawful Good tyranny, the people aren't oppressed. They may have certain individual freedoms curtailed, but nothing too major. Certain standards of behavior may be more stringently enforced, but the punishment is almost always in proportion to the crime. Persuasion is more likely to take the form of incentives for proper behavior and mild punishments for doing what is discouraged, as long as it is not actually evil.

For example, in a theocracy, worshippers of the state-sanctioned faith may get tax breaks, and the state may make an official tithe to the religion from its revenues. Open worship of other gods may be illegal, but with the exception of evil faiths, offenders are likely to be at most fined for a first conviction. Persistent transgressors may be jailed for short periods (and treated humanely while imprisoned - more to stop them from spreading their message than to actually punish them) and, in extreme cases, banished.

The state may seek to discourage certain types of behavior which it finds undesirable, e.g. drinking and gambling, by taxing them heavily. Other types of anti-social behavior, e.g. littering or making too much noise, may actually be made illegal and punishable by fines or community service.

Perhaps another identifying characteristic of a Lawful Good tyranny would be that the citizens are required by law to perform certain good (or at least lawful) deeds. Children are required by law to be educated, and the state ensures that a basic education (including a course on morality and religious instruction) is provided free of charge. Adults are required by law to be gainfully employed if they are physically capable, and the state will find a job for you if you cannot find one yourself. Citizens are required by law to provide a minimum level of service to the state or a recognized charity - a healer may spend a few hours a week taking care of the sick in a free hospital, a weaponsmith might repair the weapons of the local guardsmen for free, and a housewife could sew clothes for the local church to distribute to the poor.

 

[Nifft]

Yeah, IMHO if a government truly is Lawful Good, it's no tyranny. It's far more likely to be a utopia. (This, IMHO there are very few governments which could be called Lawful Good.)

A lot of the suggestions here are how to take something nasty and dress it up as Lawful and/or Good, but in an objective morality system like D&D has, those things are not, in fact, Good.

For example: in 3.x, Zombies are Evil. Creating them is an Evil act. They detect as Evil, and anyone who spends enough time creating them will eventually detect as Evil too. You can make a Bluff check to say you're doing Good by creating them, but you cannot make a Diplomacy check.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

I see a LG tyranny as not being particularly tyrannical. A LG police force would be vigilant, but fair and honest, and punishments wouldn't be harsh beyond what the crime merits (at least not the first offense). And in a LG society, there simply shouldn't be that much crime; yes, there's probably a forced tithe to the theocracy, and other taxes for the state, but they'd be used for good - so homeless would be sheltered, the sick cared for, the populace reasonably content. As a result, there'd be little reason to commit petty crime (eg, stealing in order to feed the family), so most crimes would probably be the result of Evil anyway, either for its own sake or for self aggrandizement (eg, stealing in order to hurt a rival businessman, or simply to have more money).

Stickier territory, taking advantage of the objective nature of DnD morality: There might be a force of paladins (or maybe constructs?) that always roam around town scanning for anything registering as evil. Being in possession of an evil item is a criminal offense. Citizens who detect as evil are given a citation and must appear before a panel of judges who ascertain the threat the citizen poses and his place in society. Without having committed a crime, he might be demerited and sent on his way, so if he does commit a crime in the future, his punishment will be harsher, possibly including banishment from the realm. Of course, is it an evil act to scan the populace for evil citizen or items with the intention of "marking" them as evil in order to protect the greater good? It's certainly "tyrannical".

In times of war, I also see a LG society being unstable. As soon as paranoia or fanaticism take root, evil is likely to bloom soon thereafter. The G part of LG will likely start to fade away as rulers become more fervent in their pursuit of the enemy and more draconian in their systems of law enforcement, punishment, conscription, etc.

 

[CorditeJimmy]

The descriptions of the plane of Mount Celestia from the old Planes of Law box set might contain some useful ideas for setting up a totalitarian LG society.

 

[Aramax]

Yeah, IMHO if a government truly is Lawful Good, it's no tyranny. It's far more likely to be a utopia. (This, IMHO there are very few governments which could be called Lawful Good.)

A lot of the suggestions here are how to take something nasty and dress it up as Lawful and/or Good, but in an objective morality system like D&D has, those things are not, in fact, Good.

For example: in 3.x, Zombies are Evil. Creating them is an Evil act. They detect as Evil, and anyone who spends enough time creating them will eventually detect as Evil too. You can make a Bluff check to say you're doing Good by creating them, but you cannot make a Diplomacy check.

Cheers, -- N

I gotta agree w/99% of this.
Having said that I still think you can add some of the oppression and still be LG.

First it would help if the country was being heavily infultrated by evils and it was nessisary to use draconian methods.It would also help to have some LN elements to the society,such as Witch Finders and covert Ops.
Concentration Camps like were run for the Japanese in the US during WW2
would be in order(very humane but humiliating none the less) but keep in mind a VERY high level of human rights would exist.

A lot of punishment would be the offenders choice-rehabilitation or exile-I see lots and lots of ex-pats in foreign cities that would be ripe for recrutment into LG bashing.First offenders would often be subject to being publicly humiliated
Indoctrinization would take place at a very young age and no doubt be conducted in extensive church schools.
Torture is a very sticky subject.In my game I allow LG to use mind altering drugs to get info from somebody caught red handed,but I
could see a case for water bordering and sleep depravation

 

[Asmor]

What you describe doesn't sound particularly good to me. That's not to say that it sounds evil, either.

I'd just call them lawful neutral and be done with it. They don't actually have to be "good" to consider themselves good.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I've got a kindgom in a homebrew I'm working on that is a fairly despotic state -- but the overall alignment is Lawful Good. It's a fanatic theocracy run by paladins and clerics of a LG god where the worship of other gods are forbidden, and which has very strict moral laws against things considered evil and/or chaotic. It's also waging a war of agression against its neighbors which do not share its black and white views on morality.

The thing is, I can't just look to historical examples of oppresive theocratic societies (kind of tiptoeing around here so I don't break the religion/politics rule) for examples. That's because some of those examples include things like genocide, torture, and like nastiness which is definitely NOT LG.

I think you can and should look at those historical examples. The negative things you're reporting were not always present in large amounts from the foundations of those societies, but rather, sprung up as those societies aged and mistreatment of non-believers & backsliders became more tolerated, even expected. Instead, such behaviors were initially not tolerated and were hidden from most...until some critical point arose. Some threat, perceived or real, internal or external, gives a push down a slippery slope and, voila, you get an Inquisition or Great Purge.

Even fictional Camelot had its internal rot, after all.

(Classic external threat: enemy state with a rival or opposed theocracy or religion. Classic internal threat: the great leader who established the utopia has died or fallen ill, and none of the potential successors is quite the man he was.)

I'm thinking the theocracy tries to break prisoners by forcing them to listen to sermons on virtue, among other methods. They will use corproral forms of punishment, but nothing that's outright inhumane, so they'll flog prisoners, but not torture them or go out of their way to main them, and they don't execute without a trial, and only for the most serious offenders (murderers, blasphemers, traitors, and the like but not anyone who they belive can be redeemed). It's the methods that's got me hung up here, they do use coersion and corporal punishment, but I'm having trouble coming up with coersive methods that don't slide down into evil.

Most non-evil coercive methods in such a society would be non-corporeal: shunning, refusal of entry to religious services; forced closure of non-approved temples; differential taxes between believers in good standing and everyone else; differences between what gov't services, political offices or even everyday jobs are available to believers and non-believers.

That sets up a certain kind of climate. The non-believers feel (rightly) put upon, and may grumble. Some may leave. Some may even seek political and societal change. This may make the believers feel their way of life is threatened...and that all non-believers are out to get them. This paranoia takes seed, which then blossoms into true hatred in the hearts of some, and then fruits into the atrocities you mentioned.

Eventually, you get to "What we have heah...is a FAILyuh...to communicate!"- man dehumanizing man in an effort to correct his behavior.

In a sense, LG tyrannies slide into LN or LE ones both because of and in spite of eternal internal vigilance.

It's for your own good!
<snipped many good depictions>
After all, it's for your own good.

Yep!

 

[Belorin]

I see a LG tyranny as not being particularly tyrannical. A LG police force would be vigilant, but fair and honest, and punishments wouldn't be harsh beyond what the crime merits (at least not the first offense). And in a LG society, there simply shouldn't be that much crime; yes, there's probably a forced tithe to the theocracy, and other taxes for the state, but they'd be used for good - so homeless would be sheltered, the sick cared for, the populace reasonably content. As a result, there'd be little reason to commit petty crime (eg, stealing in order to feed the family), so most crimes would probably be the result of Evil anyway, either for its own sake or for self aggrandizement (eg, stealing in order to hurt a rival businessman, or simply to have more money).

Stickier territory, taking advantage of the objective nature of DnD morality: There might be a force of paladins (or maybe constructs?) that always roam around town scanning for anything registering as evil. Being in possession of an evil item is a criminal offense. Citizens who detect as evil are given a citation and must appear before a panel of judges who ascertain the threat the citizen poses and his place in society. Without having committed a crime, he might be demerited and sent on his way, so if he does commit a crime in the future, his punishment will be harsher, possibly including banishment from the realm. Of course, is it an evil act to scan the populace for evil citizen or items with the intention of "marking" them as evil in order to protect the greater good? It's certainly "tyrannical".

In times of war, I also see a LG society being unstable. As soon as paranoia or fanaticism take root, evil is likely to bloom soon thereafter. The G part of LG will likely start to fade away as rulers become more fervent in their pursuit of the enemy and more draconian in their systems of law enforcement, punishment, conscription, etc.

This reminded me of the original Day the Earth Stood Still movie;

I am leaving soon and you'll forgive me if I speak bluntly. The universe grows smaller every day and the threat of aggression by any group anywhere can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure. Now this does not mean giving up any freedom, except the freedom to act irresponsibly. Your ancestors knew this when they made laws to govern themselves and hired policemen to enforce them. We, of the other planets, have long accepted this principle. We have an organization for the mutual protection of all planets and for the complete elimination of aggression. The test of any such higher authority is, of course, the police force that supports it. For our policemen we created a race of robots. Their function is to patrol the planets in spaceships like this one and preserve the peace. In matters of aggression we have given them absolute power over us. This power cannot be revoked. A t the first signs of violence they act automatically against the aggressor. The penalty for provoking their action is too terrible to risk. The result is we live in peace without arms or armies, secure in the knowledge that we are free from aggression and war, free to pursue more profitable enterprises. Now, we do not pretend to have achieved perfection, but we do have a system, and it works. I came here to give you these facts. It is no concern of ours how you run your own planet, but if you threaten to extend your violence, this Earth of yours will be reduced to a burned-out cinder. Your choice is simple: join us and live in peace, or pursue your present course and face obliteration. We shall be waiting for your answer. The decision rests with you.

Bel