Lawful Good Tyranny - How would this look?

[Orius]

I've got a kingdom in a homebrew I'm working on that is a fairly despotic state -- but the overall alignment is Lawful Good. It's a fanatic theocracy run by paladins and clerics of a LG god where the worship of other gods are forbidden, and which has very strict moral laws against things considered evil and/or chaotic. It's also waging a war of aggression against its neighbors which do not share its black and white views on morality.

The thing is, I can't just look to historical examples of oppressive theocratic societies (kind of tiptoeing around here so I don't break the religion/politics rule) for examples. That's because some of those examples include things like genocide, torture, and like nastiness which is definitely NOT LG. The thing is, they haven't collectively crossed the Moral Event Horizon here. There may be some individuals who have slipped, but overall the cleric and paladin powers are intact. To further confuse the issue, the god doesn't disapprove of their actions yet; his portfolio is law and justice and the kingdoms the theocracy is opposed to are a corrupt, decadent empire (TN), a city-state run by thieves and bandits (CG/N), a federation of pirate islands (CN), and a land ruled feuding evil arcane spellcasters (more or less CE).

I'm thinking the theocracy tries to break prisoners by forcing them to listen to sermons on virtue, among other methods. They will use corporal forms of punishment, but nothing that's outright inhumane, so they'll flog prisoners, but not torture them or go out of their way to main them, and they don't execute without a trial, and only for the most serious offenders (murderers, blasphemers, traitors, and the like but not anyone who they believe can be redeemed). It's the methods that's got me hung up here, they do use coercion and corporal punishment, but I'm having trouble coming up with coercive methods that don't slide down into evil.

Edition specifically i'm dealing with 3.x here.

And no, I don't have the Book of Exalted Deeds, so that's no help.

And anyone who thinks this is a good reason why alignment makes no sense in classic D&D, that doesn't help me at all either.

And don't get this thread locked because the religion/politics rule got broken. This is a subject that can very easily slip over that line with a few careless words, and I trust I don't have to explain why.

 

[S'mon]

Well, I think you pretty much need to define for youtself what 'law' and 'good' are; the designers of D&D have their ideas, which change from edition to edition, but don't necessarily mesh with yours.

You might try Googling for EN World poster SHARK's descriptions of his campaign world, the main realm seems a lot like a sort of fascist Lawful Good tyranny, the way you describe. You can even have a Neutral Good tyranny, a soft tolitarian state where people's actions are heavily restricted and monitored to ensure they don't hurt each other - this has been dealt with in sf a lot, and I can think of a real-world example heading that way. Your ideas seem closer to the SHARK approach though. The movie '300' might provide some inspiration.

 

[tallyrand]

Law: If it's on the books, it's Law, and therefore proper. And one Law should not be held above another - this gives us the Star Trekian "Capital Punishment for the Litterbug" type extreme. Even further taking this, if the society is theocratic enough, then all laws are given/inspired by the gods, and failure to obey is not only illegal, it is sinful. Denouncing laws, no matter how draconian, therefore is heresy, placing that person outside the church, and therefore outside the protection of law.

Good: The greatest good for the greatest number, failure to conform to the needs of the group/state/church/congregation is therefore not good = evil. The idea of self worth is secondary to group worth, and service/sacrifice to others. Any striving to be better than the group is nothing but arrogant pride, and to be scorned.

...and finally there is the great catchall: It's not Evil when we do it to unbelievers.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It's for your own good!

War of Aggression: "If we don't convert them and show them the truth, they will be doomed to an eternity of suffering! We must rule them! It is the only way to save them!"

Strict Moral Laws: "Look, I know you didn't actually commit adultery, but you were flirting with her, and that's why we have to make you a eunuch. It's OK, you won't have to worry about flirting any more! No more temptation!"

Breaking Prisoners: "The suffering our resident torturer inflicts on you is mild, compared to the torture your soul will endure for all eternity. Now, it is light, easy, and entirely stoppable. You must simply realize that we are right, and you are wrong, and you must do as we say."

Also...

Big Brother: "Our network of spies and diviners covers every inch of this city, into the homes and into the minds of those who live here. There are no secrets here, because we are all trusted friends and family. You will be watched. You will be judged. If you are found wanting, you will be punished. It is simply for your own good, as well as the good of our locals. No evil may pass here."

Reactionary Fear: "If we let you off the hook for this impure thought you had, the next thing we know, people will be raping and murdering each other's children in the street! It's a slippery slope, and we can't even start down that path!"

Enhanced Interrogation AKA Torture: "If it is against sinners, and for the good of our polity, it must be done. We cannot risk exposure to sin and vice, and we cannot permit the wicked to escape. If we have hope of finding information, we must extract it through any means possible."

Mind Control: "If we all work together in harmony, the world will be a better place. Since you aren't willingly going to work with us, this Slave Crown will ensure that you do."

Terrorisms: "If a man enters your house, and takes your child hostage, your child will be rewarded with paradise when he is sacrificed so that you can kill the invader. The child is innocent. Innocents, sometimes, must die, if the evil authority hides behind them. It is regrettable, but we cannot focus on it. We must focus on killing the evil -- at any cost."

Martyrdoms: "Every soldier must give their life for the good of the Church-State! It is their duty! They are vessels for the gods and nothing more! They have given of themselves all that they have to give, and have become tools, automatons for the Astral Beings, and we must honor their sacrifice by using them to crush the sinners and protect the innocent!"

Here's my big idea that distils a lot of that above:

Fighting Zombies with Zombies
Within the powerful military wing of the nation, a new division is being formed by one particularly zealous cleric. Called the Ecstatics, these elite soldiers willingly submit to long-term psionic mind control, becoming literal vessels for the wills of their controllers. They willingly surrender their free will and their lives to the nation. Unfortunately, the zealous cleric who leads the formation of this new division often lets his zeal trump his compassion. Some people are not so willing -- some are found. Some are forced. Some were once criminals, but forcefully "absolved" and now placed there. Some are just poor, dumb, farm kids, who couldn't possibly know any better. Sometimes, the cleric uses these troops for his own personal vendettas -- against groups or individuals that he feels threaten him or his position (like the PC's, or perhaps an unfriendly magistrate, or...). The psions responsible for this mind-control are hidden, from the public eye, and from much of the government, who are only aware of "something" under the cleric's purview, through heavily classified records.

The danger here is that the troops are effective. Famously effective. Especially against an enemy force that wants to preserve innocent lives. Each one of these vessels is an innocent, a soul unburdened of choice. Those who fight them cannot corrupt them, cannot sway them, and, also, cannot stop them. They force others to confront the ethics of killing innocents, while simultaneously absolving this particular cleric of that need. After all, those who he has killed with this tool, are wicked, are they not? Or at the very least, are trying to stop the pure expression of good that this is? Wouldn't the world be just great if we all were part of the Ecstatics?

After all, it's for your own good.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Fighting Zombies with Zombies

This is pure gold. Terrifying, but brilliant.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Why make them all LG? Throw in a very small handful of Lawful Evil characters to do the dirty work and wetwork - in places deep enough so that the vast majority of the paladins don't know about it. The newly repented criminals aren't 100% sure why they're so repentant. They remember the sermens, the lectures, the classes...but not the part of the dungeon behind the swinging wall where the man in robes and the spellbook was. They're the "dirty little secret" of the top dogs in the church or kingdom, the people they don't like but tolerate for the sake of the greater good. Or maybe only one of the top dogs in the kingdom knows about it. The others give him the particularly nasty criminals to be reformed, but they don't ask how it gets done. And what they don't know can't hurt them, right?

Of course, it's all still very lawful. The law says right there the prisoner will be given over to <department> in those cases. The law also says has no binding rules or regulations regarding that department, a curious thing missing that people don't look for and, thus, don't notice. It's not that the law expressedly states that there's no rules or regulations - they're just not written down. And of course, it's still for the greater good, and it still happens infrequently enough to not tip the country into Neutral.

 

[Derulbaskul]

I don't believe you can have a LG tyranny unless you have a LE tyrant at its core and certain agents of the core will also be similarly aligned.

The problem with tyranny is that, ultimately, no matter how good the intentions are, those in power will take whatever steps they deem necessary to preserve that power. That leads to evil.

I'm in the middle of designing such a place in my FR campaign. Yes, many of the citizens running around are G and LG-aligned but the core is evil but clever about hiding it. Hehe... reminds me of where I have lived for the past ten years....

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Theoretically, the Alliance, of the Firefly/Serenity universe, is exactly what the OP ordered: a LG tyranny. The Operative is one of those LE men who are "necessary evils" to maintain a LG tyranny.

BTW, I imagine there are some readers who believe that "LG tyranny" is an oxymoron, but that's only true if you focus on the "unjust or cruel" definition of tyranny. The word itself is denotationally broader than that.

 

[Alzrius]

The way I figure it, a Lawful Good tyranny is going to be just like any other tyranny...except that they're nice about it.

In other words, they'll act like a tyranny would - outside opinions and ideas are not allowed and are squashed - but they won't use fear or torture to achieve they're ends. Rather, they'll make sure people know the laws, and they'll punish people for breaking them, but they'll never be cruel or sadistic about it. They'll just deal out the specified penalty, taking no pleasure in it, and send you on your way. Prisoners are treated respectfully and comfortably all the way up to when they're humanely executed.

A Lawful Good nation can, conceivably, be tyrannical in that they don't allow things like democratic politics, opposing religions (or even any religions that aren't state-sponsored), and have social/racial strata. They're doing it for the greater good, however, and so won't want people to suffer for it. Everyone will have rights, just not equal rights, and lawbreakers will unfortunately get their just desserts, no more and no less.

Note that, for 3.5, the Gray Guard prestige class from Complete Scoundrel would be this country's "men in black," doing the dirty deeds that such a society would at times rely on, all the while being kept very hush-hush.

 

[kenmarable]

Fanaticism is one path a LG government could turn into a tyranny, but another good path to consider is paranoia. Fear of an enemy territory and/or enemy god can drive LG officials to extremes.

Another thing to consider is that I would think a heavily lawful society would focus more on duty than on freedoms. So whereas the US has a Bill of Rights, this society would have a Bill of Duties. The 10 or so duties that all citizens are morally obligated to perform.

Also, to help get across how bad the society is without the typical tortures and such is to consider that a tyranny can rarely stay in power without arresting a lot of troublemakers. If those in charge are LG and aren't into executions for political crimes, simple math says that you will have a lot of prisoners. So there's not just dungeons, but entire prison camps. Maybe even a region of the country used as a prison (think the legends of historical Australia or Siberia, or the fictional Escape from New York).

Plus, with such a vast number of prisoners, sorting out guilty from innocent would be too large of a practical problem. So even with those responsible being LG and trying to avoid innocent prisoners, there's just not enough resources to be thorough. So expect there to be a lot of innocent prisoners as well as those guilty of very minor crimes (speaking out against the government) shipped off to a prison camp with the rest.

Finally put propaganda everywhere. Every. Where. Sermons are magically broadcast day and night in the every town square (especially nice if there is one high priest in charge of it all, having it recycle his/her sermons to help build the mystique around him/her). Posters proclaiming the glory of service to this deity. I especially liked in Babylon 5 TV show with the Psi Corp, they had slogans like "The Corp is Mother. The Corp is Father." in the background all around. I can see the same thing with a "The Church is Mother. The Church is Father." posting visible somewhere no matter where you are.