Leadership score question...

[kreynolds]

Using the Leadership calculation of levels + Cha modifier, our guy has a base Leadership score of 14 (4 monster levels + 8 sorcerer levels + 2 Cha bonus). Why and how should ECL affect this?

I see the problem. You're using the MM to determine ECL, using "monster levels". I prefer using ECL, mostly because it's more representative of the characters power and influence, thus more appropriate for the Leadership feat.

Also, "monster levels" fail to accurately represent the power that a creature has.

Not quite. An ogre, for example, is ECL +5, but check the example on page 24 in the DMG. That tells you when the monster PC can enter the game. The ogre begins at 4th because it has 4 HD. Thus, according to the example, the ogre starts with just enough XP to be 4th level, not 5th. ECL only tells you when you can insert the guy into the game, not what level it starts at.

So- if you have a race that is ECL +4 and only has 2 HD, you can insert it into the game when the party is around 4th level but your monster PC only gets XP for 2nd level and starts the game at 2nd level. Again, page 24 in the DMG.

Yet another problem. You use the DMG to determine ECL of "monster characters" instead of the FRCS, which is much better, IMO.

Also, how many frickin' times are you gonna edit that post of yours? It's changed three times since I started quoting it.

 

[Grazzt]

I see the problem. You're using the MM to determine ECL, using "monster levels".

Nope- using the DMG to determine ECL and the MM to look up the monster's starting level. Minotaur ECL +8 (DMG page 22); Minotaur 6 HD (crap, I said 4 in my earlier post, so I must edit it again ). Anyway- the minotaur starts as a 6th-level character according to the rules for monster PCs (page 24, DMG).

Also, "monster levels" fail to accurately represent the power that a creature has.

While monster levels may fail to accurately represent the power that a creature has, I am just going by the rules as per the DMG.

Yet another problem. You use the DMG to determine ECL of "monster characters" instead of the FRCS, which is much better, IMO.

I use the DMG because that is where the rules are for it. I dont particularly care much for the FR, so I am sticking with the Core rules. FR is not Core or default after all.

Also, how many frickin' times are you gonna edit that post of yours? It's changed three times since I started quoting it.

Apparently at least once more, since I screwed the pooch on the minotaur's HD. For some reason, I had 4 stuck in my head. It actually has 6 HD. So- one more time.

 

[kreynolds]

Nope- using the DMG to determine ECL and the MM to look up the monster's starting level.

Sorry. That's what I meant. IMO, this isn't a very accurate method.

Minotaur ECL +8 (DMG page 22); Minotaur 6 HD (crap, I said 4 in my earlier post, so I must edit it again ). Anyway- the minotaur starts as a 6th-level character according to the rules for monster PCs (page 24, DMG).

ECL +8 = 6th-level character huh? Nah. There's a reason why the rules in the DMG were redesigned.

While monster levels may fail to accurately represent the power that a creature has, I am just going by the rules as per the DMG.

I know you are. I just said that those rules were misrepresentative of the true power of an ECL character, which is why I don't use them, and is also why they were redesigned in FR.

I use the DMG because that is where the rules are for it.

And I use the FRCS because that is where the rules are for it.

FR is not Core or default after all.

And Core does not necessarily mean you have the best rules available to you. Also, some rules in the Core books went through near complete redesigns, so much so that they hardly resemble the originals, but I suppose those aren't Core either.

Just because something doesn't show up in the Core books, doesn't mean that it is automatically second best to the Core books. After all, if that were true, nobody would be so eager to see errata released, as it wouldn't be Core.

I dont particularly care much for the FR, so I am sticking with the Core rules.

That's cool. I don't care much for the rules in the DMG in regards to this particular topic, so I think we agree to disagree. By the way, neither of our methods are wrong. It just depends on your campaign setting and preference.

 

[Artoomis]

Though I can't quote the rules here, the FR rules are the ones to go by. Not only are they the ones that make the most sense, they also represent the DMG/MM rules re-written to actually make sense.

The DMG/MM rules have effectively been errata'd to the FR rules - even if not officially.

 

[Grazzt]

Ok- just to settle this

I talked to Sean Reynolds about it. Here is his answer:


"According to the rules, ECL only affects equipment and XP, so it
shouldn't affect Leadership."


There ya go, though as DM you can Rule 0 anything ya like.

 

[kreynolds]

I talked to Sean Reynolds about it. Here is his answer:


"According to the rules, ECL only affects equipment and XP, so it
shouldn't affect Leadership."


There ya go, though as DM you can Rule 0 anything ya like.

That would also make hit die obselete when it concerns Leadership, as hit die are also used to determine ECL according to the DMG, and if ECL isn't a factor at all, then neither are hit die. So it looks like we were both wrong. How big is that smile of yours now?

P.S. I'm glad this hasn't come up in any of my games.