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LEB Discussion Thread '09

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elecgraystone

First Post
Which goes to my post above. As for two minotaurs, I'd go for the Dragon version (until the PH3 is out, that is).
The only issue there is with that is not everyone has dragon/DDI access. Without it the only official minotaur is the one with oversized. That's the problem with changing how a race works from the MM version.

If we go with the dragon version, we'll have to make note of the changes in the character creation thread so that everyone can make up a minotaur here if they want. It'd be kind of lame if you have all the book and want to play a minotaur, but can't because you don't get dragon. ;)
 

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Lord Sessadore

Explorer
Double Weapons and Oversized/Brutal weapons in Adventurer's vault (Discussion here.)
The basic argument was that the double weapons with two groups (ie - double sword, which is a heavy blade and light blade) can be abused mechanically. Also, since it doesn't specify that the off-hand property only applies to one end of the weapon, double weapons can push tempest fighter damage into the range of all-out-damage melee rangers. In my opinion, a fighter shouldn't be able to accomplish this without heavy multiclassing into ranger or another striker class.

Of course, if we make a policy of using the common sense interpretation of double weapons (that stonegod is talking about, and which is the intent IMHO) then there's really no problem with them.

Oversized brutal weapons were banned because increasing damage dice makes the brutal property better than intended. For example, an executioner axe. Normal version is 1d12 damage, brutal 2; a Large version would be 2d6 brutal 2, which makes the brutal property a lot better than for the normal version. 6-12 base damage is a pretty big jump from 3-12.

I agree with stonegod - it's easiest to just take oversized away from bugbears. That way there isn't the problem of trying to decide whether or not to nerf bugbear characters in the future when WotC officially takes oversized away from bugbears.
Whether or not damage from the Dark Pact powers in FRPG should be voluntary or involuntary (Discussion here.)
Definitely agree that there needs to be at least an OOC agreement between players, especially in a living world where the characters in your party have the potential to change frequently.
Whether or not to drop implement/weapon expertise feats from PHB 2 and just fix the broken math that they seem to be a patch for (Discussion here.)
I like the L4W fix. Of course, I have absolutely no bias. :angel:

As an aside, I intended to make that fix in the RL game I was running ... it just died before they hit level 5. I guess the only question is whether to ban the feats as well - we could allow people to take the feat at level 1, 2, or 4, and then just 'refund' it when they hit level 5. Might be worth it for making sub-optimal race/class combinations more viable, since we're going with the normal 22-pt buy.

Is there actually technical game info in the eberron players guide or is it just flavor and background?

Any other thoughts yay or nay to the attack power and armor I mentioned above from quintessential fighter?
I don't actually have the EPG, but I believe the Artificer class is in there in full detail. Similar to how they did the swordmage in the FRPG.

I've already given my thoughts on the armor, so I won't repeat myself. I'm sort of on the fence about the power ... I don't think there are any other at-will powers that give ongoing damage, and the ongoing damage from that at-will has the potential to out-do several encounter and daily powers that deal ongoing damage. Also, I'd lean more towards the rogue having an at-will ongoing damage power than the fighter. While some fighters do fight dirty, fighting dirty is pretty much all that rogues do. Make of that what you will.
 

elecgraystone

First Post
Str vs AC, 1[w] and target takes ongoing dmg = to dex mod (save ends)?Yeah, it seem way too good for an at will, and a defender at will. I could go for something like 'ongoing damage equal to 1/5 level, not to exceed dex mod'. So level 1-5 equals ongoing damage 1, 6-10 ongoing damage 2...
 

Vertexx69

First Post
as for the power if the target makes their save the first round it only does the same dmg as melee basic attack except for dex mod instead of str to dmg. IF they fail it does extra rounds of dex mod (potenially). How is this any different than cleave doing str mod again to another target?
 

elecgraystone

First Post
#1 What IF they fail more than once? It has the potential to do as much as dailies if the bad guy is unlucky.

#2 There are items that boost untyped ongoing damage. As far as I know there aren't any ways to boost cleave damage.

If you want to debate this any further, you should most likely 'move this particularly discussion to a proposal thread so as not to derail the intent of this one (getting LEB4E up an running).' That's what stonegod siad about the avenger debate and I think it's apply to this.
 

Goumindong

First Post
as for the power if the target makes their save the first round it only does the same dmg as melee basic attack except for dex mod instead of str to dmg. IF they fail it does extra rounds of dex mod (potenially). How is this any different than cleave doing str mod again to another target?
There is an increasing marginal benefit to stacking damage on one target. Neither cleave or that other one that adds dmg on a miss have this problem.
 

EvolutionKB

First Post
I think SG is spot on with sources allowed. Divine power is not far away, I assume that will be approved before we get things finalized.

Oversized weapons: They do become broken with some of the brutal weapons. I'm in favor of disallowing them.

Double weapons: I think common sense should apply to the weapon's properties, as SG said, some have a place in the setting.

Expertise feats: I am good with the L4E proposal as well.

Dark pact: I agree with player permission.

Non-WotC proposals: I am not a fan of either the armor or the at will, They seem too powerful or out of place.

EPG has the artificer class, feats, and "new races".
 

Vertexx69

First Post
I found that I got the "adventurers guide to eberron" as opposed to the players guide. I'll have to keep looking for the one with the useful info in it :)

Yay I found it!
 
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ukingsken

First Post
Of course, if we make a policy of using the common sense interpretation of double weapons (that stonegod is talking about, and which is the intent IMHO) then there's really no problem with them.

Then the general consensus would seem to be we all just use our brains and understand that it was meant the unbroken way. Excellent! I feel progress in the wind!

I agree with stonegod - it's easiest to just take oversized away from bugbears. That way there isn't the problem of trying to decide whether or not to nerf bugbear characters in the future when WotC officially takes oversized away from bugbears.

So again a consensus! If we remove oversized from bugbears, and run with the Dragon version of minotaurs we should be good to go and not need to worry about the oversized/brutal interaction at all. And I know not everyone has access to DDI, but I'm kind of inclined to say thats like not including Arcane Power or any other book because someone hasn't bought it. Whether or not everyone has access to a source should not really impact whether or not we allow or even require that source. That being said since it's just the one race thats going to be different we can easily communicate what those changes are.

As an aside, I intended to make that fix in the RL game I was running ... it just died before they hit level 5. I guess the only question is whether to ban the feats as well - we could allow people to take the feat at level 1, 2, or 4, and then just 'refund' it when they hit level 5. Might be worth it for making sub-optimal race/class combinations more viable, since we're going with the normal 22-pt buy.

I don't think it would be worth the effort really. If we're starting at 4 (which seems to be the consensus) then you'd get 1 level out of it and then get it "refunded" and just get to pick another feat. If you're playing a suboptimal combination it's because you probably don't care that it's suboptimal (and are more interested in the RP potential).

As for divine power I think it'll be released before everything is finalized but maybe not approved until after submissions have started? Then again I'm not very sure of the release dates so who knows, but the sources are indeed spot on I think. Anything anyone else can think of regarding starting sources or should we once again try and tie up the "wealth over time" discussion that just kind of petered out?
 

Lord Sessadore

Explorer
I believe the release date for Divine Power is the 21st. It's pretty soon, in any case.

On Expertise, what about those choosing to start at level 1 with a suboptimal race/class? Just throwing it out there ;)
 

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