Left out by rules-lite RPGs?

[jmucchiello]

Certainly nobody will ever agree on exactly what defines "D&D flavor." What defines it for me may be quite different from what defines it for you. But, as far as I'm aware, nobody has simply taken D&D 3.5e and just tried to make it simpler.

But what would make it simpler. Throw out skills? Throw out feats? Throw out tactical combat? You need to explain what complexities you like and what complexities you don't like. As I've said, I've used various light and heavy rules systems to play D&D. It's the adventures that make it D&D for me. Not the rules. Even Str, Int, Wis, Dex, Con, Chr (in the order I learned them) are not required for it to be D&D to me. No one has to be a Fighter (fighting man) or a Wizard (mage) for it to be D&D.

It's always make it simpler with an old-school feel or make it simpler and genre-neutral. Nobody has tried making a simpler system without a secondary design goal as well.

There are very few designs that have only one goal. A secondary goal is inevitable. I have a game that is OGL based that barely resembles the PHB but I call it Dungeon Crawl and it's design goal is to make prep-work simpler for the GM. It turns classes into "archetypes" and is completely feat based although none of the feats in the game are the same as the D&D feats even if they share the same name. Is that simpler? Well it is, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be harder to convert to since you have to learn an all new feat tree. It is not ready for release so it doesn't help you but my point was that simpler is meaningless if it is also all-new.

It would probably be quite hard, but I know that there are some very talented designers out there. So if any of you are reading the thread, this is my challenge to you: design me D&D 3.5e, but simpler. The more compatible with "official" D&D in terms of flavor (of core assumptions, of archetypes, of "feel") the better.

Again, feel is up to you. You can take the rules to Legend of the Five Rings and play D&D with them. You really can. It will take some work but it can be done.

When you say design a 3.5e but simpler, what does that mean? Does every PrC and feat in every 3rd party supplement have to work in this simpler design? What must remain compatible for you to still call it 3.5e? What would destroy the "simplicity"? Your challenge is incomplete.

 

[jmucchiello]

Actually, what you're wanting sounds like what I'm advocating for 4E in the "attacks of opportunity" thread. That is, that the core rules be simplified, with some things like grid-based tactical rules included as options, rather than assumed and built into the system.

One of my back burner projects is a collection of existing feats and combat options that completely remove AoOs but don't destroy feat balance or existing monster designs. IOW, somehow Improved Trip is still a worthwhile feat even though "does not provoke an attack of opportunity" is stricken from its text. There would be two versions of these feats: one without AoO and one with the tactical grid at all. Maintaining balance between these three system is the bugaboo.

 

[seskis281]

Enough Already!!

I'm totally aware that nobody will ever make my personal holy grail of a system. I accept that. But I'm somewhat concerned that nobody seems to try to address general *area* that my personal holy grail system would be in.

I've seen Unearthed Arcana, and it has some very good things in it. I would love it if WotC produced more UA-type books. I think they're a good way to address side-interests like mine and others. Plus, they can throw bones to more than one group per book.

I haven't looked over the D&D Basic Game, but I somewhat resent the feeling that my group would need to "graduate" to full D&D in order to play past a certain point (4th level?).

Certainly nobody will ever agree on exactly what defines "D&D flavor." What defines it for me may be quite different from what defines it for you. But, as far as I'm aware, nobody has simply taken D&D 3.5e and just tried to make it simpler. It's always make it simpler with an old-school feel or make it simpler and genre-neutral. Nobody has tried making a simpler system without a secondary design goal as well.

It would probably be quite hard, but I know that there are some very talented designers out there. So if any of you are reading the thread, this is my challenge to you: design me D&D 3.5e, but simpler. The more compatible with "official" D&D in terms of flavor (of core assumptions, of archetypes, of "feel") the better.

I was going to let my previous posts and suggestions stand with the best of wishes, but something here compelled me to respond once more.

For the most part people responding to your query have done so with the thought of giving suggestions on how they mix systems, adapt systems, etc. to achieve similar ends - some certainly are apostles of their favorite brands, but like me we can see when something's not quite what you want. I think I have a good idea of what you don't like, but still are unsure what you like about 3.5. I've scrolled back through the posts, and can't seem to find a clear definition of what you think of as "the feel" of 3.5. Archetypes? The basic archetypes are present in all D&D systems back to the beginning, and certainly are there in other systems. Fantasy-medieval basis? Same thing.

The core problem here is what sets 3.x D&D apart is its explosion of varients and rules - the massive empowering of character traits that move them beyond mere archetypes into more "fantasy superheroes." Again, when some mention C&C, you state, for example, your disdain for the separate XP level charts. What is it that you want here?

What are "core assumptions?" I think the wide variety of posts indicate that they're are many even different interpretations even within a single system.

My biggest reaction here, and what prompted this final post (after which I will shut up), is that you seem to be saying:

"None of you know what I want.... so someone give me what I want!"

You seem to find mixing systems abhorrant, you don't want to modify 3.5 "down," you certainly find taking a rules-light system and modifying it "up" repugnant. The general gist is you don't feel you can be happy playing an RPG/D&D system unless it is presented to you in one unified "system" that is exactly what you want it to be, and in such a way that you don't have to make any changes.

My friend, the only person who can design a system like this for you IS you. You will never find anyone, even if WotC were to create a "D&D Medium," who will give you the EXACT system you want, and asking us to do it for you... well, nothing any of us could produce would likely ever make you completely happy either.

You've made it pretty clear you want a system that can be run AS IS, with no alterations, and that fits your criteria. That pretty much means its YOUR baby here - you think you're part of the hole in the market? FILL IT! Create the system you want! Nothing is stopping you, unless it really is just that you want D&D to ask as little work from you as possible, and in that case my sympathies end.

John Maddog Wright