Legal Eagle has entered the chat, about OGL 1.1

[Staffan]

We use Roll20. Put the whole map on the screen and cover whatever the PCs can't see. As they move reveal the new areas of the map. It's not hard. It's not perfect but it works.

It's the insistence that the VTT be a simulation that's the problem...and what drives players towards "needing" a 3D VTT. Do you spend the extra time in meatspace games to get a mobile light source that shows through windows and doors? That only and exactly shows what the PCs' light source would reveal? I'm guessing no. Or do you just reveal the whole next room by pulling back the cloth or whatever you have covering the map? I'm guessing that's what you do.

So the "extra" work you're complaining about and dreaming a 3D VTT would solve is a problem entirely of your own making. You've created the problem and want the machine to solve it for you. Why do that? You can run it in the same way you likely run meatspace games. Just because the VTT can do something fancy doesn't mean you have to use it. All that extra work for so little gain.

In a meatspace game, I usually only draw the relevant parts of the map once combat starts. And drawing by hand on dungeon tiles is much easier than drawing using the computer, at least when using a mouse. If I were to draw battlemaps by mouse at run-time, that would be a massive pain both for me and my players.

 

[overgeeked]

No one "needs" it. No one needs minis or battle mats. The game can be played purely "theater of the mind." It can be played by postal mail.

Lots of people (including me and my group) like it, which is why VTTs have been successful and the space is a significant opportunity for Wizards. I completely understand why it doesn't do anything for you. I just don't understand why you can't seem to stop universalizing your preferences.

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I like VTTs. They let me play safely with my friends and family. I'm not universalizing my preferences. I'm pushing back against the idea of a 3D VTT that's half-a-step away from a video game and removes the need to imagine things in the fiction of the game. You are taking that and deciding what I really mean is all VTTs are garbage. That's not what I'm saying. This is maybe the third or fourth time I've had to say that to you specifically. So, tschüss.

 

[overgeeked]

In a meatspace game, I usually only draw the relevant parts of the map once combat starts. And drawing by hand on dungeon tiles is much easier than drawing using the computer, at least when using a mouse. If I were to draw battlemaps by mouse at run-time, that would be a massive pain both for me and my players.

Yeah. I'm the same. I use a double-sided dry-erase roll-up mat and markers. Generic tokens that are numbered and color coded for PCs and baddies. Finding a free battle map and dropping it in is great. Obscure the whole thing and only reveal what the PCs see by room. Drawing is easy enough on Roll20 but it's time consuming.

So why is dynamic lighting a thing to spend time futzing with? Why does it matter if the door opens with a click or if you have to fiddle with layers, etc?

 

[Greg Benage]

So why is dynamic lighting a thing to spend time futzing with? Why does it matter if the door opens with a click or if you have to fiddle with layers, etc?

It doesn't. You're right. Everyone who likes those features has a wrong opinion.

 

[Reynard]

I really, really just want a VTT white board so I can run the game just like I do at the table with tactiles. If they can give me tokens that look like dice and M&Ms, even better.

 

[Clint_L]

It doesn't. You're right. Everyone who likes those features has a wrong opinion.

I spend a lot of time and money making sure I have both physical terrain with opening doors and LED lighting, so I can only imagine how wrong my preferences are. I feel shame for being so wrong about the way I like playing the game.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

We use Roll20. Put the whole map on the screen and cover whatever the PCs can't see. As they move reveal the new areas of the map. It's not hard. It's not perfect but it works.

We use roll20 and have been hit or miss on dynamic lighting...

I default to saying "If we were at a real table i would have the map out, so I'll just trust you"

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I really, really just want a VTT white board so I can run the game just like I do at the table with tactiles. If they can give me tokens that look like dice and M&Ms, even better.

but I can't eat your mini then...

 

[Reynard]

but I can't eat your mini then...

The edible* ones are always the monsters.

EDIT for clarity: but not like actual edibles.

 

[mhd]

I really, really just want a VTT white board so I can run the game just like I do at the table with tactiles. If they can give me tokens that look like dice and M&Ms, even better.

I'm just waiting for someone to either release a dedicated skeuomorphic VTT or just enough graphical assets to do that with existing ones.

Just like something that goes all out for pixel art and JRPG-ish aesthehtics (no, not talking about Shmeppy).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The edible* ones are always the monsters.

EDIT for clarity: but not like actual edibles.

back in HS we used M&Ms and Recites Pieces for monsters, and who ever got the kill got to eat them...

 

[Bill Zebub]

Was hoping this was LegalEagle. Guessing the latter is more reputable...

That's a mighty high bar.

 

[Remathilis]

Interesting take he has.

 

[Reynard]

Interesting take he has.

The stuff on copyright versus trademark isinteresting, but it is clear that he doesn't really understand the culture of 3PP products and how they interact with D&D. Sure, technically, maybe you don't need the OGL. But for the things that people made with it, having it made is SAFE, which was its real value.

 

[Hex08]

The stuff on copyright versus trademark isinteresting, but it is clear that he doesn't really understand the culture of 3PP products and how they interact with D&D. Sure, technically, maybe you don't need the OGL. But for the things that people made with it, having it made is SAFE, which was its real value.

I get what you are saying about the culture but, in the end, all that matters is how the courts decide to interpret this and who can afford the legal battles, if any are fought.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The stuff on copyright versus trademark isinteresting, but it is clear that he doesn't really understand the culture of 3PP products and how they interact with D&D. Sure, technically, maybe you don't need the OGL. But for the things that people made with it, having it made is SAFE, which was its real value.

He makes that clear though and points out the better person for the job.

Amusingly, I think he might not know WotC makes M:tG and screwed that up recently too.

 

[Justice and Rule]

So why is dynamic lighting a thing to spend time futzing with? Why does it matter if the door opens with a click or if you have to fiddle with layers, etc?

I mean, I find it pretty easy to do in Foundry, but why do I do it? Well, it's something really cool and can transmit mood in a way that words make clumsy. Flickering lights, glowing red orbs, allowing a player to naturally scout and relay what they see without having to completely explain it to them... it is just really cool and useful. They can use their own words rather than repeat mine back to other players. Same with dynamic sound if you get to use it. It takes time and effort, but I find them to be really experience-changing things.

 

[mhd]

Obscure the whole thing and only reveal what the PCs see by room. Drawing is easy enough on Roll20 but it's time consuming.

So why is dynamic lighting a thing to spend time futzing with? Why does it matter if the door opens with a click or if you have to fiddle with layers, etc?

I played for a long time with Roll20, free version, as I preferred to reveal whole blocks instead of seeing those aesthetically unpleasing blobs of light and shadow. (And that tier didn't even get you scripting access)

But when I bought Foundry, I played around a bit with it, as it was pretty much the standard there. I even installed a mod ("SimpleFog") to get back to my manual reveal.
What I found out is that the dynamic lighting is simply faster during play. I don't have to mess with the mouse while selecting several rectangles to reveal more complex rooms, don't have to think about the vision and light ranges of the party.
If this would result in too much prep work, I'd probably still don't do it, but with Foundry, I found that quite okay. If I do my work with DungeonDraft, the walls are automatically imported. The same for Watabou's Dungeon Generator. Heck, now there's even a plugin that allows me to draw whole dungeons (albeit rather rectangular ones) on the fly and the walls/doors are done properly. (I've also gotten rather quick at doing walls myself)

I'm surprised at how well that works. The only online reveal thing that I liked even better was the owlbear.rodeo implementation where you can prepare your room cut-outs and then just reveal and hide them with one click. (Sadly their new version is going all out second system effect.

 

[Bolares]

The stuff on copyright versus trademark isinteresting, but it is clear that he doesn't really understand the culture of 3PP products and how they interact with D&D. Sure, technically, maybe you don't need the OGL. But for the things that people made with it, having it made is SAFE, which was its real value.

Well, he is a Lawyer, with a channel focused in the legal aspect of issues. The psicological effects of the OGL are not really on the scope of his brand. Legally speaking, for most of the content creators the OGL was and is useless, even if it does make them feel safe.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I really, really just want a VTT white board so I can run the game just like I do at the table with tactiles. If they can give me tokens that look like dice and M&Ms, even better.

Right? Like, if I just had a nice virtual whiteboard (with a grid, like the dry-erase grid I use IRL) I could quickly draw on and easily erase on, and where there were tokens that could be moved around (doesn't even matter by who - I'd be fine with anyone being able to move anything, especially if the DM had an "undo" button), I feel like I'd be vastly better off than with any VTT I've ever used.