D&D 5E Legendary actions... should it be 3?

CapnZapp

Legend
Based on the concept of Legendary actions, should it most likely be based on the number of PC's in the fight vs just a fixed number such as 3?

For example, a creature with legendary actions against 2 PC's would get 1 legendary in theory... but against 10 PC's would get 3.

Should this scale based on the number of PC's -1? This would let a legendary creature act roughly after each PC which seems to be the intent.
I think you're looking at it from the wrong angle.

The question you should ask yourself is:

How many player characters do WotC build their game for?

And I believe "four to five" is a good baseline answer.

So go right ahead granting your monsters six legendary actions in a game with 8-10 heroes. But of course, that's the least of your worries, since you probably need to double everything else to (like the hit points of the BBEGs, the number of henchmen etc)
 

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Designwise, splitting the actions up makes more sense. After all, DPR can be increased by having one monster make one attack with +10000000000000 damage. Slicing it up into smaller actions, each of which can fail, is a practical difference worth appreciating, even for non designers.

Yes, but now you're conceding that it's not for increased challenge at all--it's a solution to a problem created by cyclic initiative and large parties. It has nothing to do with game balance and everything to do with the pace around the table.

So apparently we agree on that.
 

This logic has never made sense to me in 5E. There is no practical difference between a monster with a multiattack claw/claw/claw/bite and a monster with a bite attack and three legendary claw actions. It's not the raw number of actions that matters; it's the product of DPR and HP on each side. (Cf. Lanchester's Square Law.) Plus of course other considerations like stealth, mobility, magic, etc. The DMG math acknowledges this, which is precisely why it treats Legendary Actions just like any other action: you just roll it into the DPR.
In theory, but that means putting enough damage in a monster to threaten an entire party and then confining that in two to four hits. Each hit becomes really strong, and a crit is devastating.
And any action denial or accuracy mitigation (disadvantage, stunning, etc) becomes very strong.

Plus, it's not very reactive. The party can move around, freely shifting around the monster, healing and recovering, etc. The boss can't respond to changes in the battle for almost a full round. It's a less dynamic fight for the players as well; it's easy to know where the boss will be and what's happening as the boss acts slowly.

A boss with multiple actions keeps the party on its toes and is simply a more dynamic battle.
 

NotActuallyTim

First Post
Yes, but now you're conceding that it's not for increased challenge at all--it's a solution to a problem created by cyclic initiative and large parties. It has nothing to do with game balance and everything to do with the pace around the table.

So apparently we agree on that.

Wrong. It's a way of increasing challenge without disrupting table pace. It's not worth sacrificing one for the other. Without proper pacing, might as well not even play.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
Since it recharges each round, I had no problem with it. One of my DMs made it so that it recharged +1 every time the legendary creature took a hit, maximum of 3. It basically gave them infinite charges, but there are only so many turns it can act on. Personally I just opened it up a bit, letting them use any non-magical attack (in this case I was working with dragons), it didn't make much of a damage difference, just a thematic difference of the dragon snapping its jaws at you or swiping its claws instead of always a tail slap. But I also believe in directional attacks and facing, so it made the fight visually different.
 

mellored

Legend
Personally, I think legendary turns would be better than legendary actions. That way you can stun them and feel good about them missing a turn, but since the monster will get twice as many saves against hold person and such, it will only be 1/2 as effecive.

As for scaling by players, that's already built into the XP budget.
 

Plus, it's not very reactive. The party can move around, freely shifting around the monster, healing and recovering, etc. The boss can't respond to changes in the battle for almost a full round. It's a less dynamic fight for the players as well; it's easy to know where the boss will be and what's happening as the boss acts slowly.

A boss with multiple actions keeps the party on its toes and is simply a more dynamic battle.

Even more dynamic is to ditch cyclic initiative and run combat just like everything else: players declare their actions, DM consults dice if necessary and dictates the results.

Legendary Actions are a mediocre fix to the problems created by cyclic initiative.
 

Valdier

Explorer
Even more dynamic is to ditch cyclic initiative and run combat just like everything else: players declare their actions, DM consults dice if necessary and dictates the results.

Legendary Actions are a mediocre fix to the problems created by cyclic initiative.

I'm confused how this would fix any issues? You are saying get rid of initiative and combat rounds completely? Just have the DM handwave the results somehow? Something different? What do you mean specifically? I'm curious as to your idea on this.
 

I'm confused how this would fix any issues? You are saying get rid of initiative and combat rounds completely? Just have the DM handwave the results somehow? Something different? What do you mean specifically? I'm curious as to your idea on this.

The key problem with cyclic initiative is that it forces N-1 of the N players to sit around doing nothing until their own turn comes around. Nothing else in the game works this way. Normally, the DM describes a situation, the players say what they want to do, and the DM tells them what happens. (DM: there aren't any guards in sight right now. Bob: I climb the tree. Arel: While he's climbing the tree, I sneak under the bush. Kevin: I lean on a fence post and look casual. DM: Okay, you do that, then here's what happens...)

That's the way combat works at my table too, with a twist: higher Int means faster thinking means shorter OODA loops, so I tell them the declared actions of low-Int monsters first, and then ask players to declare their actions in order of Int from lowest to highest. (High-Int monsters are relatively few, and get slotted in where appropriate.) Although in practice what that actually means is that I let players of high-Int characters change their action declarations based on declarations from lower-Int characters, again because of the OODA loop. Then we all resolve actions simultaneously, rolling initiative if it's necessary to resolve near-simultaneous actions. Frequently it's not--if I miss you and then you hit me for 7 points of damage, it doesn't matter which came first.

This is exactly how we used to play AD&D. There are a couple of other little wrinkles related to durations and delayed actions, but that's the gist of it.

Key properties: it avoids any artificial modal distinction between combat and non-combat; it allows smooth flow back and forth between combat and noncombat as necessary, which encourages players to consider nonviolent solutions to certain problems (like "how do we surrender when overmatched?"); it provides a natural precedent for resolving other near-simultaneous actions such as two people both waiting with readied actions on the same trigger; it neatly solves the problem of action declarations that will take longer than one turn to resolve ("I sneak around the encampment" while other PCs are fighting orcs just means you have the other PCs roll several rounds of attacks against the orcs and then tell the sneaking PC when he's in position); and most importantly, it prevents the DM from having to ask players to sit around in enforced inactivity while it's "not your turn". The pacing stays dynamic and cooperative.
 

Tormyr

Hero
I have had anywhere from 6-8 players in my campaign over the last 2.5 years. The adventure path I am running uses 4 PCs as a baseline. When there were multiple enemies in an encounter, I would bump the number of enemies by a similar proportion to the increase in PCs (6 PCs get 50% more enemies). When that is not possible, such as with a solo monster, I increase hp and/or uses of legendary resistance. A creature that is balance for a large party by upping the damage has at least two things I like less: it is a glass cannon that will possibly go down very quickly to the PCs and there is a chance of it knocking a fully healthy PC out in one turn/round.

I bump the hp for each PC instead. CR 1 to 19 creatures get 30 hp per PC while CR 20+ creatures get 90 hp per PC. This increases the CR by 1 (increasing the defensive CR by 2 without changing the offensive CR). A CR 10 creature is a medium encounter for 4 level 10 PCs. A CR 11 creature is still barely a medium encounter for 5 level 10 PCs. A CR 12 creature has fallen under the medium threshold for 6 level 10 PCs. The monster continues to be a little less competitive with additional PCs, which might be a good thing. The idea is to get the creature to stick around long enough to get some damage in. If the creature actually had enough hp to keep the challenge the same for 8 PCs instead of 4, the combat will go on for a long time, the party will blow more of their high damage stuff, combat takes too long, and the group starts moving to a 5 minute work day. YMMV

The other thing I will do is use an extra legendary resistance in place of one of the hp bumps if the party is peppering the creature with save or suck spells and it blows its uses of legendary resistance early. The monster is not crippled, but it will fall just from damage.

This system has worked well for me through the years of our campaign. The party is now level 19 and its a high magic item campaign as the adventure path was brought over from 3.5.
 

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