D&D 5E Legendary issues

[AaronOfBarbaria]

The rules for a game are always going to fall flat of actually simulating the reality of the game world, so that goal isn't really one that is worth pursuing since that kind of "the rules are the "physics" of the in-game universe" approach doesn't necessarily make the game more fun to play the closer to the impossible to hit target it gets.

So other goals are aimed for, such as the goal of the rules providing a fun and interesting game-play experience when used (such as when actually in combat). Then all you have to do is what 5th edition has done by saying that the rules are not meant to be used when the result is an undesireable one (such as when trying to use the combat rules to resolve non-combat situations like whether the solar has to walk across the dirty floor to get his broom when trying to clean up his kitchen or if he can teleport past the mess to the broom).

 

[Sunseeker]

I quite like legendary actions conceptually. It represents an intelligent creature's ability to think and fight tactically instead of simply brute forcing its way through everything, which sadly, many monsters in 5E are. The "end of another creature's turn" is basically a way to give a single monster more actions in a round and break up the potential of it getting ganged up on by a group of players who have 5-6 turns.

 

[iserith]

Take a solar (Angel). It has a legendary action wherein it can teleport 120 ft to a spot it can see. But apparently it can only do this in battle?

Nope.

Does it have the ability to teleport outside of combat?

Yep.

And am I understanding LAs incorrectly?

Yes and no. You appear to see the rules as largely prescriptive ("you can only do X"), when they are largely descriptive ("here's how you use the rules to help determine X, if you want"). The DM describes the environment. If the DM says the solar teleports 120 feet outside of the context of combat, then it does. When it comes to determining how often a solar can do that in the course of a battle, the rules for Legendary Actions can be applied.

It says they can be taken at the end of ANY creature's turn. Does that mean allies as well?

Yep.

So the more allies a legendary creature has in a fight the more things it can do?

Nope. If you're drawing upon the rules for Legendary Actions as shown in the solar's stat block, then they can only do three until the start of its next turn.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I like the legendary rules a lot. They are a big step up from 4e solos which just didn't work at all.

That's fair, if you put 'well' and 'initially' at the end of it.

They are a pretty fair implementation of the idea of a solo, with a more genre-evocative name as a bonus. It's nice that they retained some of what solos became in the 4e MM2 & MM3 and MV, with their emphasis on minor, off-turn, and special initiative actions and action-retention features to help them challenge a full party, rather than just tossing the idea out entirely like they did minions.

Quibbling about how a monster can use in-combat actions out of combat isn't much of a criticism. 5e leaves interpretation up to the DM. If a monsters has a legendary action teleport it can teleport off-turn in the heat of a combat where it's outnumbered. Awesome. Out of combat, it might still teleport, just not with as much dispatch. It might teleport much further, as well, out of combat, or not be restricted by LoS.

Keeping the stat block focused on combat makes the DM's job a little easier when it's at it's hardest, and lets him go the extra mile to flesh out the creature when he's running something less intense, if he wishes.

 

[Psikerlord#]

That's fair, if you put 'well' and 'initially' at the end of it.

They are a pretty fair implementation of the idea of a solo, with a more genre-evocative name as a bonus. It's nice that they retained some of what solos became in the 4e MM2 & MM3 and MV, with their emphasis on minor, off-turn, and special initiative actions and action-retention features to help them challenge a full party, rather than just tossing the idea out entirely like they did minions.

Quibbling about how a monster can use in-combat actions out of combat isn't much of a criticism. 5e leaves interpretation up to the DM. If a monsters has a legendary action teleport it can teleport off-turn in the heat of a combat where it's outnumbered. Awesome. Out of combat, it might still teleport, just not with as much dispatch. It might teleport much further, as well, out of combat, or not be restricted by LoS.

Keeping the stat block focused on combat makes the DM's job a little easier when it's at it's hardest, and lets him go the extra mile to flesh out the creature when he's running something less intense, if he wishes.

Yeah I have no issues about in or out of combat abilities etc - the DM can handle all that.

I think Legendary resistance should go a bit further actually - to also give a save when normally there isn't one (eg: forcecage).

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I get the game play reason for Legendary Actions in 5e. I really do. It is to allow a solo creature to take on a party of PCs.

But one of the things I most despised about 4e was how the world was meant to explain the game mechanics rather than the game mechanics explaining the world.

Thankfully, most of that philosophy was dropped from 5e...but it remains strong in Legendary Actions.

Take a solar (Angel). It has a legendary action wherein it can teleport 120 ft to a spot it can see. But apparently it can only do this in battle? Does it have the ability to teleport outside of combat? If not...why not?

I have looked at some other enworld threads on this issue and they basically come down to "well, the creature fights harder with more foes."

Ok, I might be able to buy that except MOST LAs involve unique actions that cannot be taken otherwise. And even then, by definition a legendary creature can always take 1 LA per turn in combat. But it just seems to me that an ability like teleport has enough noncombat uses that it shouldn't be relegated to a LA.

And am I understanding LAs incorrectly? It says they can be taken at the end of ANY creature's turn. Does that mean allies as well? So the more allies a legendary creature has in a fight the more things it can do? Does this seem right?

I just make legendary actions go off, three per round, at 5, 10, and 15 ticks slower than the main action, no matter who is in combat. I am using Speed Factor initiative but it would work under cyclic initiative too.

I would of course allow those actions to be taken out of combat too, using the exact same rules: three legendary actions per six seconds.

 

[Li Shenron]

I just make legendary actions go off, three per round, at 5, 10, and 15 ticks slower than the main action, no matter who is in combat.

I don't think there is any problem with your house rule. The "end of another creature's turn" IMHO is there only to clarify that the legendary actions don't interrupt someone else's turn: the DM just decides when the monster takes those actions, but they still go off sequentially with other creature's actions. It's just to keep things simple.

I am not at all sure whether they noticed than with less than 3 opponents the monster would effectively also get less than its normal 3 legendary actions, due to the limit of max 1 action every time. I am actually ok with whatever a DM would want to do in this case, either have the monster do less than 3 actions or let it do more than one action each time to still get the total per round. By the way many (all?) of the legendary monsters in the MM have at least some legendary action that actually costs 2 or even 3, so you could also favor those 'greater' legendary actions when facing less than 3 opponents.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think Legendary resistance should go a bit further actually - to also give a save when normally there isn't one (eg: forcecage).

Or magic resistance should go there - or both - yes.

I just make legendary actions go off, three per round, at 5, 10, and 15 ticks slower than the main action, no matter who is in combat. I am using Speed Factor initiative but it would work under cyclic initiative too.

Some 4e Solos worked that way, including going /faster/ than the rolled initiative. It borders on running a lone monster, mechanically, as if it were a group of monsters stuck together with superglue, but it seems to work well enough in actual practice.

 

[Warbringer]

According to my shrink, yes I do...

Think of it like the legendary creature gets a reaction against all those attacking it up to a maximum of three actions...

 

[Psikerlord#]

According to my shrink, yes I do...

Think of it like the legendary creature gets a reaction against all those attacking it up to a maximum of three actions...

that's very much how i view it