D&D 5E Legendary monsters are not solo monsters

[Quickleaf]

I'd like to hear more about why you think the premise is bad.

They've created a type of monster that literally cannot be significantly affected by an entire category of player characters. What other reason can there be for such a move?

I don't think it's a bad premise, just that it's really a matter of perspective rather than a "hard fact."

When you say "cannot be significantly affected by an entire category of PCs" I am assuming you are referring to casters who rely predominantly on spells which require saving throws? So...enchanters and illusionists, for example?

First, Legendary Resistance doesn't completely shut down such spells, just the first 3 or so such spells cast at it. In other words, it merely buys a monster time. A player using good strategy might try throwing out some lower level spells that require saves, before opening up the big guns, giving the legendary monster the choice between using Legendary Resistance now or biting the bullet and suffering the effect in order to save Legendary Resistance against higher level spells. Bad strategy against a legendary monster would be unloading with the most powerful spells that require saves first.

Second, a creative player can find workarounds for Legendary Resistance. For example, an enchanter could charm other creatures to do his or her fighting for him/her, and that would both be an effective strategy and wholly "playing within type." An illusionist might cleverly minimize the monster's ability to make physical contact with his/her illusions, thus denying the monster a saving throw entirely.

 

[DaveDash]

Spell casters have plenty of spells that use attack rolls, many quite effective. Legendary Resistance doesn't apply to those spells.

 

[Joe Liker]

Spell casters have plenty of spells that use attack rolls, many quite effective. Legendary Resistance doesn't apply to those spells.

Have another look through the spell listings. There actually aren't that many, beyond cantrips.

It's not hard to imagine a spellcaster never taking those spells, especially if the player has never looked through the MM and is unaware of LR.

 

[Joe Liker]

I don't think it's a bad premise, just that it's really a matter of perspective rather than a "hard fact."

When you say "cannot be significantly affected by an entire category of PCs" I am assuming you are referring to casters who rely predominantly on spells which require saving throws? So...enchanters and illusionists, for example?

First, Legendary Resistance doesn't completely shut down such spells, just the first 3 or so such spells cast at it. In other words, it merely buys a monster time. A player using good strategy might try throwing out some lower level spells that require saves, before opening up the big guns, giving the legendary monster the choice between using Legendary Resistance now or biting the bullet and suffering the effect in order to save Legendary Resistance against higher level spells. Bad strategy against a legendary monster would be unloading with the most powerful spells that require saves first.

Second, a creative player can find workarounds for Legendary Resistance. For example, an enchanter could charm other creatures to do his or her fighting for him/her, and that would both be an effective strategy and wholly "playing within type." An illusionist might cleverly minimize the monster's ability to make physical contact with his/her illusions, thus denying the monster a saving throw entirely.

Let me be clear: I'm well aware of the ways to work around LR, and I'm not here to complain about LR as a monster trait.

But you must admit that it's significantly easier for a fighter to be effective in such a fight. All they have to do is walk up and start swinging, like they always do. The fact that a spellcaster has to go to such lengths and play outside his normal strengths leads me to believe this is not supposed to be his fight in the first place.

 

[MonkeezOnFire]

There are plenty of ways a caster can contribute to a fight without using spells that require a save:
- spell attacks that target AC
- cast buffs on the party
- summon creatures
- alter the battlefield
- transform yourself into a form that can attack
- attack with your weapon (some clerics and valor bards are actually quite good at this)

No single caster can do all these things, but each caster always has alternate ways to be effective. It's actually quite hard to imagine a caster only preparing spells that require saves. And if you did and you're complaining that you can't do anything that's your fault for making poor decisions.

 

[Mephista]

Let me be clear: I'm well aware of the ways to work around LR, and I'm not here to complain about LR as a monster trait.

But you must admit that it's significantly easier for a fighter to be effective in such a fight. All they have to do is walk up and start swinging, like they always do. The fact that a spellcaster has to go to such lengths and play outside his normal strengths leads me to believe this is not supposed to be his fight in the first place.

Its not that high level monsters with all that resistance means that casters are impotent or not meant to fight them. That's an entirely false premises - the game isn't designed so that monsters need certain classes to deal with. The days of not bringing your rogue to an undead fight are over.

The problem is an over reaction to the caster dominance of 3e. That happens a lot in game design.

As an example - When Mage: the Awakening came out, they took the concept of Paradox (the main drawback of being a mage to keep their powers in check) and decided it was too strong. With a bad roll, you could accidentally kill yourself, and people were paranoid about doing anything. So, they made it all but meaningless. When someone said, to the writer's face, that the mechanic was too weak, they flipped out and accused the person of wanting to do all the horrible stuff from previous editions. No, that's not the case. They were just being told they went too far.

That's what happened here. Low level casters have limited spell slots per day, so they need to hoard the spells. High level spell casters need to worry about magic resistance. And Concentration. And low number of high level spell slots. And abilities limited to level 5 magic and below.

They just took a good idea and went too far.

 

[Quickleaf]

Let me be clear: I'm well aware of the ways to work around LR, and I'm not here to complain about LR as a monster trait.

But you must admit that it's significantly easier for a fighter to be effective in such a fight. All they have to do is walk up and start swinging, like they always do. The fact that a spellcaster has to go to such lengths and play outside his normal strengths leads me to believe this is not supposed to be his fight in the first place.

The thing is, battle master fighters have powers that rely on saving throws, and some Spellcaster builds rely on spells that use attack rolls and no saving throws. So maybe a better comparison would be Champion Fighters / Barbarians / Rogues to illusionisist / enchanter type casters?

As my examples with the illusionist and enchanter pointed out, you do not need to play outside of normal strengths as a caster facing a legendary monster. You just need to think a bit more creatively about how to apply your spells, and use some strategy about not leading with your big guns. No big deal.

 

[Mistwell]

So far in my experience legendary monsters work just fine as solos. Their ability to attack during multiple initiative counts helps them fight a full party. Their high hit points and magical resistances help them last longer. Overall, I think they work pretty well as solos.

 

[Joe Liker]

The thing is, battle master fighters have powers that rely on saving throws, and some Spellcaster builds rely on spells that use attack rolls and no saving throws. So maybe a better comparison would be Champion Fighters / Barbarians / Rogues to illusionisist / enchanter type casters?

Fair enough, call it that. But please keep in mind that even if you don't agree with this particular premise, it's not my only premise.

I still say it's a very stupid Legendary who willingly remains in combat with an adventuring party on their terms, without any backup.

 

[DaveDash]

Have another look through the spell listings. There actually aren't that many, beyond cantrips.

It's not hard to imagine a spellcaster never taking those spells, especially if the player has never looked through the MM and is unaware of LR.

I've ran a ton of combats against higher level monsters using a variety of different spell casting classes. It's highly unlikely that a spell caster doesn't have any spells that can effect the battlefield by the time they reach those levels. They may not be functioning at their full capacity, but neither is the poor melee fighter trying to hit the flying Dragon...

A lot of direct damage spells always do damage, even on a successful save.

Also spells like Faery Fire are great spells to spam at a creature with LR. It's pretty devastating to them if they don't save, and low enough you can spam it and burn through their LR. Likewise a Battlemaster who multi attacks can burn through a monsters LR in one turn.