D&D 5E Legendary monsters are not solo monsters

[Rhenny]

So if Legendary Monsters aren't meant to be Solos (rather than simply being as badly designed as MM1 solos) then there is no way out of the box that a party in a game of Dungeons and Dragons should have a decent fight against a dragon without a pack of minions. Is Dungeons and Dragons really intended to lack showdowns with the party vs a dragon?
QUOTE]

I think the old D&D mind set that a dragon may be nearly invincible is definitely turned on its head with 5e, but here is what 5e offers:

A party of 4 or 5 5th level PCs can encounter an adult dragon, get hurt pretty badly (but do enough damage to make the dragon flee). Then, when the group encounters it again at 7th or 8th level, they can get revenge.

For an ancient dragon I'm not sure how the numbers work, but maybe it's more like 8th level you get your butts handed to you, but 12th level you can take it. (I haven't run one this high yet so these numbers are just made up).

I'm totally cool with letting DM modify dragons to suit his or her campaign. Just giving a dragon Heavy Armor Mastery (some kind of DR), or Sentinel feat, or resistance vs bludgeoning, slashing, piercing, can go a long way to making it stand out. Also, spellcasting dragons can be a real killer especially if they can cast fireballs or lightning bolt or other big damage area spells.

A lot of a fight with a dragon might depend on whether or not it recharges its breath weapon too. If it can use its breath, then fight for a round or two using spells or just its normal weaponry, it may get another chance to breath (every 3rd round on average).

 

[Mistwell]

CR is, in general, not useful for anything -- not even the job it is supposed to do, which is to help the DM gauge the deadliness of a monster.

I've found it works quite well.

 

[Nebulous]

I've found it works quite well.

I've found it works quite well. It's a guideline, nothing more.

 

[Chocolategravy]

I've found it works quite well.

It is wildly inaccurate. It only "works" if I'm lobbing very easily winnable fights at the party where the large amount of error still isn't enough to push it over the point where the fight could be too hard. If you try to use it to make a fight that is challenging, which is sort of the point, then your fight can easily be lethal or too easy with different monster choices of the same CRs because those CRs don't work.

With this whole bounded accuracy kick they were on, there really isn't any excuse for it except lack of effort on their part. CRs should be FAR more accurate and useful than they are.

I think there is a general consensus that low level monsters are under CRed and high level ones are (very) over CRed. There is no direction in the DMG's encounter building about this, it's just something you have learn as a DM, the CRs don't mean a whole lot and you certainly can't use them the way you're instructed to.

 

[aramis erak]

It is wildly inaccurate. It only "works" if I'm lobbing very easily winnable fights at the party where the large amount of error still isn't enough to push it over the point where the fight could be too hard. If you try to use it to make a fight that is challenging, which is sort of the point, then your fight can easily be lethal or too easy with different monster choices of the same CRs because those CRs don't work.

With this whole bounded accuracy kick they were on, there really isn't any excuse for it except lack of effort on their part. CRs should be FAR more accurate and useful than they are.

I think there is a general consensus that low level monsters are under CRed and high level ones are (very) over CRed. There is no direction in the DMG's encounter building about this, it's just something you have learn as a DM, the CRs don't mean a whole lot and you certainly can't use them the way you're instructed to.

I'll point out that if you're having issues, but the majority of us aren't, then the problem is you're doing something that the designers didn't anticipate, not that the rule doesn't work.

 

[Eric V]

I've found it works quite well. It's a guideline, nothing more.

A guideline to what, exactly? Like, what does the number mean to you, and how is it helpful in encounter building?

I sort of agree with Joe; so far it seems to tell me that a monster with a CR above the level of a party member has a decent chance to one- or two-shot the PC...but that's about it.

 

[Eric V]

It is wildly inaccurate. It only "works" if I'm lobbing very easily winnable fights at the party where the large amount of error still isn't enough to push it over the point where the fight could be too hard. If you try to use it to make a fight that is challenging, which is sort of the point, then your fight can easily be lethal or too easy with different monster choices of the same CRs because those CRs don't work.

With this whole bounded accuracy kick they were on, there really isn't any excuse for it except lack of effort on their part. CRs should be FAR more accurate and useful than they are.

I think there is a general consensus that low level monsters are under CRed and high level ones are (very) over CRed. There is no direction in the DMG's encounter building about this, it's just something you have learn as a DM, the CRs don't mean a whole lot and you certainly can't use them the way you're instructed to.

My level 12 dungeon delve bears most of this out, actually. The party was forced to leave the delve after 1 hard and 1 deadly encounter. No CR above 8.

I was surprised to see the DMG describe the average adventuring day as 6-8 medium to hard encounters.

 

[Imaro]

My level 12 dungeon delve bears most of this out, actually. The party was forced to leave the delve after 1 hard and 1 deadly encounter. No CR above 8.

I was surprised to see the DMG describe the average adventuring day as 6-8 medium to hard encounters.

It is wildly inaccurate. It only "works" if I'm lobbing very easily winnable fights at the party where the large amount of error still isn't enough to push it over the point where the fight could be too hard. If you try to use it to make a fight that is challenging, which is sort of the point, then your fight can easily be lethal or too easy with different monster choices of the same CRs because those CRs don't work.

With this whole bounded accuracy kick they were on, there really isn't any excuse for it except lack of effort on their part. CRs should be FAR more accurate and useful than they are.

I think there is a general consensus that low level monsters are under CRed and high level ones are (very) over CRed. There is no direction in the DMG's encounter building about this, it's just something you have learn as a DM, the CRs don't mean a whole lot and you certainly can't use them the way you're instructed to.

I am genuinely curious about this, since I haven't really had issues with CR, though admittedly my game is just hitting 3rd level now. Would either of you have any specific examples that you could present?

EDIT: Also, I'd be interested in knowing the number and makeup of your parties...

 

[Nebulous]

A guideline to what, exactly? Like, what does the number mean to you, and how is it helpful in encounter building?

I sort of agree with Joe; so far it seems to tell me that a monster with a CR above the level of a party member has a decent chance to one- or two-shot the PC...but that's about it.

At a glance the number just tells me Easy, Normal, or Hard. I don't balance encounters with budgets or math, i never have, i don't enjoy doing that. So if i'm flipping through the MM quickly and come across a CR 8 monster, i'm going to skip that entry for my 3rd level party. Unless I want to truly scare the bejeezus out of them.

 

[Eric V]

I had a thread about it in here, called Dungeon Delves.

First Encounter was an illithid and 2 umber hulks. So, a CR 8 and 2 CR 5 creatures, facing off against 5 level 12 characters. Considered Hard.

Party was a paladin, barbarian, fighter, warlock, and cleric. They got rocked by the encounter, but survived, with no fatalities.

2nd encounter was with 5 drow, 2 elite drow warriors, 1 illithid and one assassin. Considered deadly. They survived with no fatalities (barely) but not enough resources to go on. Their work day was done.

In no case did they face a monster with a CR above their level -4.