D&D 5E Legendary Resistance

[Dausuul]

I'm still running low-level, so I haven't had to worry about it yet, but does anyone have options for a different way to do this other than, 3 times a day, monsters just auto save? My problem with it is narrative; are the PCs supposed to know that's how the monster's defense works? Or only know it if someone did enough research or were an 'expert on dragons' or some such?

I would narrate it as the legendary monster calling on its inner powers to overcome the effect.

For example, let's say you hit a dragon with hold monster and it fails its save. I'd say something like, "The dragon goes rigid for a moment, and then its eyes flare brilliant red and it starts moving again. It laughs and says, 'Is that the best you have, little wizard?'" PCs who've done their research (gone to sages, made good knowledge checks), or who roll Insight versus the dragon's Deception, will know that the dragon is bluffing a little; the spell came close to working and the dragon did not have an easy time throwing it off. It can't keep doing this indefinitely.

If you've ever watched "Willow," think of the scene where Willow throws the acorn at Bavmorda. That's what Legendary Resistance in action looks like.

So if they knew it, they could hit the creature with low powered attacks until they use up the resistances.

Only if the legendary creature is dumb. It chooses when to use Legendary Resistance--it doesn't have to waste it on nothing saves.

 

[Nebulous]

With my house rule on inspiration just letting reroll, the legendary creature makes a check with advantage like a save still fails and decides to use one of his inspirations, he would make the save again with advantage. Sure I understand it is almost like an automatic success but the point is it isn't there is still the chance it fails, the dice are used and I am not telling my wizard he should never try to use a spell like dominate monster on the creature.

With the creature being able to use it for any roll I can see myself as the DM using it to make sure I get a good solid hit in early on, essentially using it up so that a few rounds into the fight the spell casters can throw out those save or suck spells and go crazy when one works.

Right now my big issue with legendary resistance is it turns creative and fun spells into things you just don't cast, the spellcasters become cantrip or direct damage spell slingers and the whole fight is a race to see who can deal the most damage.

Ok, I see. Well it is certainly a viable solution. I have not used a legendary monster yet, but i can imagine that the three autosaves are really going to annoy players. I might adopt this too. If anything, it just reminds me of how brilliantly flexible 5th edition is.

I might even consider a compromise....ONE autosave, the others are your advantage thing. I hope in the future we see in official sourcebooks more varied use of these powers, such as the ones discussed here. It's just the tip of the iceberg in how 5e monsters can evolve.

 

[CM]

I would narrate it as the legendary monster calling on its inner powers to overcome the effect.

This.

Also like I mentioned in another thread, don't have the legendary resistance take effect until the start of the creature's turn, if possible. That way a couple of party members might get in a turn while they're able to take advantage of the spell effect. It will help soften the blow of this "cheater" option and it feels more dramatic as well.

For death effects, disintegration, or other effects that are instant, perhaps have the initial blow seem devastating (failed save) and the creature is knocked prone and stunned until it begins its turn. Then it just uses its legendary resistance, wakes up, and gets more angry. This happens all the time in literature and movies. The hero (or villain) takes a blow that looks lethal, but after the smoke clears they're still standing there (or gone, or starting to get up again, etc).

 

[BigVanVader]

I also dislike legendary resistance and am not sure what to do about it, to me it is more of mechanical thing just shutting down the real spells turns the fight into a slug fest where only direct damage matters. It neuters the spellcasters in the epic fights and only the damage dealers matter.

I approve of this, since spellcasters in general should be neutered. Martials forever!

 

[Psikerlord#]

Since it applies once they fail the save, you could use a recharge mechanic and take it out of your hands.

Legendary Resistance: When this creature fails a save it instead makes the save, Recharge 5-6. So just like breath weapons on dragons at the start of it's turn you roll a d6 and on a 5 or 6 it recovers the use of this ability. I might also let them use a legendary action to recover the ability off turn.

I also dislike legendary resistance and am not sure what to do about it, to me it is more of mechanical thing just shutting down the real spells turns the fight into a slug fest where only direct damage matters. It neuters the spellcasters in the epic fights and only the damage dealers matter.

Its only 1 or 2 spells per caster if you have more than one in the party. I think it's fine for your BBEG. I wish they had variations of it though, eg: just 1 auto save, or 2, not always 3. Perhaps there will be variations in DMG. I mean there is modifying monsters in the DMG, so I guess modifying legendary resistance up, down or sideways is all open for tweaks, just like any other rule, if there's another version that suits your needs better.

 

[Chocolategravy]

If you've ever watched "Willow," think of the scene where Willow throws the acorn at Bavmorda. That's what Legendary Resistance in action looks like.

That scene took many rounds. Many rounds in which the party would be standing there picking their nose off camera not taking advantage of the situation. This sort of thing is super common in movies but is lazy writing and it doesn't translate well to D&D. Players demand things make a bit more sense than movies do because they aren't being distracted by pretty visual effects or like a baby without object permanence, they forget about things that aren't on screen. The long dramatic effect in Willow ends up having to be a split second in D&D.



In the case of legendary resistance it is REAAAAALLY lazy writing. Rather than go to the effort of giving different monsters different defences that might be appropriate, we got a generic blanket ability that only works against saves which that takes no effort on the part of the enemy to invoke. We should have gotten different resistances appropriate to the creature such as a physical defence for heavily armored BBEGs, or elemental defence for a BBEG that is a master of elements. Instead no matter how magically vulnerable you think the BBEG should be, they get an auto-save. It would have been great if we had a "shove a minion in the way" ability like the goblin boss, that is a perfect legendary ability.



Anyway, probably the easiest solution short of re-writing the total fail of a legendary system and all the boring legendary monsters is to just give a reroll rather than an auto-save. At a minimum the fact that the boss has auto-saves should be made apparent to the players, and maybe removing any un-used saves when it's health drops below half.

 

[Tormyr]

Its only 1 or 2 spells per caster if you have more than one in the party. I think it's fine for your BBEG. I wish they had variations of it though, eg: just 1 auto save, or 2, not always 3. Perhaps there will be variations in DMG. I mean there is modifying monsters in the DMG, so I guess modifying legendary resistance up, down or sideways is all open for tweaks, just like any other rule, if there's another version that suits your needs better.

I am pretty sure that a couple of monsters only have 1 auto-save.

 

[Dausuul]

That scene took many rounds.

It took 12 seconds. Two rounds, and if you subtract the part where it cuts to Willow watching and count only the shots of Bavmorda herself, closer to one. In any case, the point is that legendary resistance has a perfectly good narrative explanation: The monster is throwing off the effect with raw power. (Admittedly, it falls down a bit when applied to Dex saves, but it's unlikely a monster will often be using Legendary Resistance on a Dex save anyway.)

In the case of legendary resistance it is REAAAAALLY lazy writing. Rather than go to the effort of giving different monsters different defences that might be appropriate, we got a generic blanket ability that only works against saves which that takes no effort on the part of the enemy to invoke. We should have gotten different resistances appropriate to the creature such as a physical defence for heavily armored BBEGs, or elemental defence for a BBEG that is a master of elements.

Yeah, they should totally have given ancient red dragons a high AC and immunity to fire! I don't know what they were thinking, not doing that. Oh, wait a minute. They did.

Legendary resistance is the saving-throw equivalent of hit points: A general-purpose defensive buffer. Monsters also get specific defenses appropriate to them. Between lair actions, legendary actions, and the usual array of monster abilities, there's plenty to distinguish one legendary creature from another.

 

[Psikerlord#]

The more I think about it the more I believe legendary resistance is fine. In 2e some monsters had 95% magic resistance - you had to roll 96-100 on d100 to affect them with any magic at all. At least in 5e you can still use some magic against legendary resistance, it's just that you can expect the creature to save often.