Legends and Lore for 2/13

[vagabundo]

I don't get the healing surge hate myself. I voted for them. They are an interesting mechanic. I think I'd rename them heroic surges and that might help with the haters... maybe not.

I voted for them to be in the core and I was sorely tempted to vote for weapon speed and weapon vs armour too..

I think it would have been more helpful to have a "yes if" option on some of the choices. I didn't vote for feats, but I would have if they are not a dumping ground for all sorts of weird subsystems and if they are not just static, fiddly, bonuses...

 

[Hassassin]

All I can say is, the people who don't like healing surges better start voting for healing surges as optional if they don't want them in the game! As core, it's got something like 1200 votes right now and only 500 or so as optional!

If I don't want them, why should I select them as optional? I mean, I'm not *opposed* to them being optional, but there are things I'd actually *want* as optional rules.

Edit: I interpreted the votes as: core - I would use in every campaign and can't imagine they would hurt anyone's play; optional - I would like to have the rules for when I want them; neither - don't put into core, I wouldn't use them as an option.

 

[Grazzt]

I don't get the healing surge hate myself. I voted for them. They are an interesting mechanic. I think I'd rename them heroic surges and that might help with the haters... maybe not.

Good call. And tone down the number each PC gets per day as well. I don't necessarily hate them, but they need to be changed a bit if they are going to stay (IMO). (And for the record, I didn't vote for them).

I voted for them to be in the core and I was sorely tempted to vote for weapon speed and weapon vs armour too..

I did vote for Weapon vs. Armor. Makes sense and makes weapons more interesting.

I like the idea of weapon speeds too, but it'd have to be reworked I think. Sure a dagger is faster than the lochaber axe or guisarme, but good luck getting close enough to use it before getting hacked, stabbed, impaled by the opponent with the polearm/longer weapon.

 

[vagabundo]

Good call. And tone down the number each PC gets per day as well. I don't necessarily hate them, but they need to be changed a bit if they are going to stay (IMO). (And for the record, I didn't vote for them).

Yeah I wouldn't be adverse to tweaking them. I'd be sad to see them go I think they could be a great addition to the game and do fit with the HP paradigm.

I did vote for Weapon vs. Armor. Makes sense and makes weapons more interesting.

I like the idea of weapon speeds too, but it'd have to be reworked I think. Sure a dagger is faster than the lochaber axe or guisarme, but good luck getting close enough to use it before getting hacked, stabbed, impaled by the opponent with the polearm/longer weapon.

I do like the idea. My problem is with how they fit in with the overall combat system which seems more abstract than those two subsystems. the unevenness in abstraction would annoy me.

And there are big problems with how those system work monsters natural armours and attacks without kludges.

If those problems could be solved and the systems were elegant I'd be happy. Excited even.

 

[Thaumaturge]

I also voted for Weapons vs Armor. I don't think it's necessarily good for every combat, but I ran some Dark Sun scenes back in the day where various weapons were scattered about an arena, and the gladiator PCs had to fight of waves of NPCs in different types of armor. Weapons vs Armor was a neat part of that.

Thaumaturge.

 

[Agamon]

I couldn't vote for healing surges/second wind without including it with a fatigue/wounds hit point system. That combo would rock on toast.

 

[Ratskinner]

All I can say is, the people who don't like healing surges better start voting for healing surges as optional if they don't want them in the game! As core, it's got something like 1200 votes right now and only 500 or so as optional!

Not that I dislike healing surges, but almost all the poll options are the same way (as of right now.) Just a side effect of setting up the poll that way. Better ways would have been to force you to categorize each item as "Core-Optional-Drop" or better yet, rank them by your desire to keep them in the core.

 

[pemerton]

But that doesn't explain why they don't dominate the world - they do, just not this world.

But is that a problem, provided that other world (Aman, Feywild, Underdark etc) is not the world where most of the mundane action is? It becomes more like Devils dominating the Hells and Demons dominating the Abyss, which doesn't threaten human dominance of the mortal world.

I don't see a problem with saying "demihuman level limits aren't to enforce that demihumans are sub-par - they're to enforce that such limits are par, and humans are exceptional for being able to go beyond them."

There's no problem with that per se - I just find it at odds with the fantasy I'm familiar with. The greatest mages and fighters of Middle Earth, for example, were elves, not humans. Their failure to dominate resulted from factors other than their abilitity.

 

[The Shadow]

For a great article explaining why demi-human level limits make sense, read this article: Demi-Human Level Limits - What Were Those About?

I clicked on the link and read it. That's ten minutes of my life I'll never get back.

The argument in that article is wildly misguided, IMHO. Trying to enforce story conditions with game mechanics is just ridiculous. I can forgive Gygax for it because he was the pioneer; I can't forgive this guy for rehashing such a nonsensical idea at this late date.

And even if I accepted that elves in general (for example) were just not as good at wizardry (for example) as humans - a bizarre assumption from a legendary perspective, I might add - why should I assume that's still true of elven adventurers, who by definition are extraordinary?

And as a rider, I'll ask why every world has to follow the same canon as Greyhawk? If I want a world that *is* dominated by elves, why does the game and its rules have to get in my way?

Demihuman level limits have never made any sense - I thought so even back in 1981 - and they make less than no sense now. YMMV, but you aren't likely to convince me otherwise.

 

[Bedrockgames]

All I can say is, the people who don't like healing surges better start voting for healing surges as optional if they don't want them in the game! As core, it's got something like 1200 votes right now and only 500 or so as optional!

Most of the polls on the wotc site seem to tilt 4E. Given how controvertial they are, i doubt Heaing Surges will make it in as core.