Legends and Lore for 2/13

[Alzrius]

But is that a problem, provided that other world (Aman, Feywild, Underdark etc) is not the world where most of the mundane action is? It becomes more like Devils dominating the Hells and Demons dominating the Abyss, which doesn't threaten human dominance of the mortal world.

That's fine if the creatures under consideration are explicitly residents of this other world, but that's not the nature of demihumans - they dwell in the mortal world alongside their human counterparts. If elves are from another world, and not so common that you see them with regularity when you go about your home town, then the underlying paradigm has changed dramatically.

There's no problem with that per se - I just find it at odds with the fantasy I'm familiar with. The greatest mages and fighters of Middle Earth, for example, were elves, not humans. Their failure to dominate resulted from factors other than their abilitity.

I'm no Tolkien scholar, but as I recall the actual "mages" (as opposed to creatures like elves that had some magic innately) were angelic beings. Likewise, I'm not at all sure about the "greatest fighters" thing - that seems to be more of an assumption than anything actually depicted. But again, I'm not too familiar with the intricacies with the source material here.

Honestly though, I think that the most salient point here is that D&D isn't Middle Earth, and doesn't carry the same assumptions on even the parts that look the same.

I clicked on the link and read it. That's ten minutes of my life I'll never get back.

I had the same thought when I read your post.

The argument in that article is wildly misguided, IMHO. Trying to enforce story conditions with game mechanics is just ridiculous. I can forgive Gygax for it because he was the pioneer; I can't forgive this guy for rehashing such a nonsensical idea at this late date.

So let me see if I understand this. You don't like the idea, but you can magnanimously find it within yourself to "forgive" Gary Gygax for it because he was a "pioneer" (which sounds suspiciously like "nobody knew any better back then"), but someone else writes a contemporary piece supporting the idea, and you "can't forgive" it?

I had no idea the bar for forgiveness was so high.

And even if I accepted that elves in general (for example) were just not as good at wizardry (for example) as humans - a bizarre assumption from a legendary perspective, I might add - why should I assume that's still true of elven adventurers, who by definition are extraordinary?

"a bizarre assumption from a legendary perspective"? What legends are you referring to that explicitly state that elves are better than humans at wizardry, all else being equal?

Likewise, why should you assume that adventurers are by definition extraordinary? It's entirely legitimate to assume that adventurers are average people who choose to persevere, rather than having some sort of innate extraordinariness.

And as a rider, I'll ask why every world has to follow the same canon as Greyhawk? If I want a world that *is* dominated by elves, why does the game and its rules have to get in my way?

That depends on what you're riding.

But in all honesty, the game can't be everything to everyone, and I'm of the opinion that it shouldn't try. If you don't want Vancian spellcasting, do you ask why the game and its rules just have to get in your way? (Not to mention that its easy to ignore the level limits if you really find them "unforgivable").

Demihuman level limits have never made any sense - I thought so even back in 1981 - and they make less than no sense now. YMMV, but you aren't likely to convince me otherwise.

Your post has made it very clear that your mind is made up where discussing this is concerned.

 

[Gamer McSmartypants]

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