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Legends and Lore - What Can You Do?

OTOH, don't monsters have tons of hit points, and combats are longer?

Yes.

Monster hit points/combat length is the primary reason in-combat healing is needed as much as it is. It is also a primary cause for needing defenders and controllers.

Unless a combat only involves a handful of minions, there are no quick and dirty combats. Monster HP combined with a lack of fight ending special effects/abilities produces longer combats resulting in more damage sustained per fight. Thus the need for in-combat healing, a brick designed for taking the brunt of the unavoidable punishment, and specialists to lock down & delay parts of the opposition to help mitigate the amount of incoming damage because there sure as hell isn't any way to kill them off any faster.

And all of that is because "the encounter" is supposed to be this grand unit of measuring gameplay. :hmm:
 

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fredal

First Post
I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

I'm actually kind of moving in that direction myself, albeit not completely there yet. I've been treating the NPC initiative as a DC for players to beat with an initiative check. All PCs who beat it can go in any order they choose among themselves, then the NPCs go, then everbody else/restart the order. The effect is generally that high initiative characters go and then we go into side vs side initiative.

I confess that I like the idea of characters being able to invest in ways to improve their initiative. I would want to include that in side-vs-side initiative. Perhaps use an average initiative bonus for each side? Improved init would not be quite as good but it would still improve the whole group score a little. Or apply the +4 as long as someone on the side has it, maybe.

I like this idea a lot - it still make initiative matter, but removes the chaos of tracking who goes when.

You can even take it to another level to make the whole process go faster. Combine all of the players and monsters turn into a party turn and a monster turn. At the start, each party member rolls to beat the monster's initiative (DC: 10+ highest monster init mod) using each PC's initiative mod. If you beat this, you get a free round before the monsters go. Also, you can add modifiers to the DC to reflect party or monster surprise effects (If the monsters are set up for an ambush, each party mamber takes a -10 to their roll, for example)



The combat round would go like this:
  • Free PC turn: PCs who make the init DC roll
  • 1st round - Monsters turn
  • 1st round - All PCs turn
  • 2nd round - Monsters (and so on)
Each turn could be even further simplified into phases. The whole party does each phase at the same time
  • All ongoing damage is taken by those suffering
  • Recharge (if applicable - Monsters only)
  • Individual PC/Monster turns (Standard / Move / Minor) in whatever order
  • Action Points
  • Save to end effects
  • Remove End of Next Round / Saved effects
I think that this would result in more damage from ongoing effects and would also allow for more Buffs / debuffs to effect creatures longer.

It doesn't fix the issue with too many power choices or too many HP, but I think it would streamline the combat round without sacrificing much in the way of tactics.

One more thing just occurred to me. Let the players go in any order they want. If more than one player wants to go next, use initiative modifier as the tie breaker.
 
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Crazy Jerome

First Post
But, to me, this makes complete sense.

Imagine I'm on the street and a guy with his fists up is moving menacingly towards me. Depending on the distance, I have a couple seconds or so to react -- to withdraw, kick him, etc.

He knows that too, and will account for those possibilities. He moves in not exactly knowing how I'd counterreact.

If I was not paying attention or surprised (not in 'combat mode'), then feasibly, he could move into melee and then get his next action before I could react.

Ranged attacks ignore this complication but have different issues, thus making their combat tactics feel genuinely different, and not the same.

And this scenario gives fighters a reason to throw a spear before closing into melee, like they sometimes did in 1E (but have little mechanical reason to do so now).

Reach weapons also become tactically important.

The problem is when the movement occurs in a phased rules system. Let's say that you and I are 90 feet away. You have a halberd. I have a dagger. We can both cover 30 feet in a move. Both wanting to engage, we both move forward on our single action. Now, with just us involved, that's no issue at all. (There is the issue of how fast we can do this closing on each other while other people are, say, firing arrows are casting spells.)

But once you get into close enough range for it to matter, people don't typically run right up (sans charge). That is, I'm not going to spend my action walking right into your halberd range. If I move, I'm going to move about 20 feet, and start looking for openings. And more critically, I will never stop moving. If I do, I'm dead. You will be doing the same thing, albeit your movement will be a bit different, since you want to keep me back and I want to get inside your reach.

Again, if we want to play that out one-on-one, the single action can work. The combat will take awhile, because we will spend a lot of those actions doing nothing but moving. But as soon as you mix bows, spells, and other stuff in, it becomes misleading. Now, maybe if you want to make melee that realistic, you would also make drawing an arrow, notching it, pulling it back, acquiring the target, and firing--take more than one action. And you'd set up most powerful magic to be the same way--gathering the energy, shaping it, launching it, etc. However, D&D has traditionally ignored all those details and/or abstracted them (aka, the 1 minute rounds of early D&D).

Once you abstract it somewhat, then my initial example makes more sense. We both want to close. We are both wary. We start 90 feet apart. We both "move" rapidly until we are within about 15 feet, and then we start circling and dancing around looking for an opening. (Or, if I'm not an idiot or overconfident, and we are equal skill, I'm running--knowing that you don't bring a dagger to a halberd fight. As initially stated, I must think I have some other edge to seek this engagement. :cool:)

For a single-action economy that was less abstract I'd probably acknowledge that not all movement is created equal. Make each characters' "speed" higher than normal, but only let it apply out of melee when not doing anything else. Thus, we can "close" on each other rapidly (in number of turns), and it won't matter that bows and spells are flying equally rapdily. However, once someone gets into melee (or starts firing or casting or doing anything else), they are still presumed to have some minor tactical movement. The 5-step is insufficient, but 15 feet or so would work. (You can still have interrupts for those directly engaged to discourage abuse.) This latter movement would not adjust by speed, because it is constrained by so many factors (armor, weapon ability, speed, dexterity, etc.) that you might as well call them a wash. There might be an option to forgo your "melee movement" in order to stay on a target--essentially moving with them without the hassle of an interrupt mechanic.
 

LurkAway

First Post
My assertion is that combat is more exciting if a decent portion of the PCs damage absorbing capabilities are in the form of in-combat healing.

Monster hit points/combat length is the primary reason in-combat healing is needed as much as it is.
So in-combat healing may have its perks, but somehow the consequence was that combats became longer, and monster have hit points exactly because PCs are more sturdy (a combo of more hp, surges, and in-combat healing).

Unless a combat only involves a handful of minions, there are no quick and dirty combats.
It might be nice to have the best of both worlds. Somehow have clerics "go nova" in the "boss" battles, in-combat healing auras allowing for long dramatic battles. Otherwise, the norm could be more quick and dirty battles with lower hit point monsters -- without in-combat healing, ya, PCs could drop but the since the battles are short, they wouldn't be out for long.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
billd91 said:
I'm actually kind of moving in that direction myself, albeit not completely there yet. I've been treating the NPC initiative as a DC for players to beat with an initiative check. All PCs who beat it can go in any order they choose among themselves, then the NPCs go, then everbody else/restart the order. The effect is generally that high initiative characters go and then we go into side vs side initiative.

In the interest of spitballing initiative ideas, I've always liked doing the following:

1 - The ones with the highest Initiative bonus on the party's side and the enemy's side roll off.
2 - Whoever wins goes first, and then the other "side" goes. The sides alternate going down the initiative chain.
 

LurkAway

First Post
For a single-action economy that was less abstract I'd probably acknowledge that not all movement is created equal. Make each characters' "speed" higher than normal, but only let it apply out of melee when not doing anything else.
Perhaps the only thing you need to remember is whether the creature is in melee mode or not. Thus moving from ranged mode into melee mode is 1 action (for most encounter distances). Once in melee, some small amount of movement is implied. Other than that, I'm not entirely sure I follow...?
 

Living Legend

First Post
I didn't have a chance to read the whole thread but I wonder if they would consider an action system like Savage Worlds. I haven't played it much, but when I did a while back I like the action system. You could do as much as you wanted per round, but the more you did the more penalties you got. So if you attack its a plain roll, if you run and attack its a -1 (or something), if you run and kick a door down and attack its a -2, that kinda thing.

This would encourage shorter, faster turns, but not make for limited and boring turns where you feel like you didn't contribute anything.
 
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Crazy Jerome

First Post
Perhaps the only thing you need to remember is whether the creature is in melee mode or not. Thus moving from ranged mode into melee mode is 1 action (for most encounter distances). Once in melee, some small amount of movement is implied. Other than that, I'm not entirely sure I follow...?

I doubt that abstract positioning would fly in D&D, short of using a side by side initiative system, anyway. With abstract positioning, you'd probably use "speed" and "initiative" in a slightly different format, to handle stances, being "inside" the guard, and other such things. That would probably work better in the side by side version, like fredal listed.

For a better version of what I said, check out the 4E forum's copy of this topic, and my "dual action" posts.
 

Wiseblood

Adventurer
I would not mind a one action round. Certain actions would need to priority IMO.

First Movement
Then Melee
Third Missile Fire
Fourth Spells

Some might think missile fire would go first or spellcasting.

Movement simply IS whether you just started or have been going for hours. It is more about the distance traveled in the allotted time before other actions take place.

Melee comes next because anything less than 20' can be covered in about a second. If a melee character is too far away to close for melee in the movement phase you get a free shot.

Missile fire does require drawing ammunition, aiming and a very brief travel time. (a readied action might be applicable here)

Spells do not benefit anyone if they are incomplete. This is why they come in last.
 


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