D&D 5E Legends & Lore 4/1/2013

I think this implementation is awful.

Once upon a time, way back in January of 2013, there were a series of L&L articles that detailed the current goals of DDN. In particular, this article detailing the "Advanced" rules talked about the concept of "dials" - that the rules can be adjusted to fit a play-style, or rules can be stacked on top of the "Standard" rule set. To me, this seems like exactly the sort of thing that should fall under that banner. In fact, many of the examples in the cited article specifically point at grittier play. To quote Mike from the current L&L: "Adventurer tier covers most of what we consider to be the standard D&D experience." I thought the Standard rules were supposed to be covering the standard D&D experience. That's why they were called Standard.

Mike further says, "most experienced groups will simply jump straight to adventurer tier..." In essence, this means eschewing the Standard rules altogether for most groups (his words, not mine). Since most players will gain experience by playing the game, you would expect any given player/group to run the Apprentice tier once, maybe twice. Unless, of course, you're going for a certain style of game - in which case, see above. Now we're at a point where most groups aren't even running the Standard game. Sure, the change is pretty minor. However, per their own design goals, spinning those dials, changing the rules, was supposed to be relegated to the whole Advanced modules thing.

I have no qualms with the whole "gritty fantasy" feel, and I enjoy playing it as much as I enjoy playing heroic fantasy. I would buy the hell out of a module that had Apprentice levels, rules for more realistic and/or lethal play, and so forth. But this is shoddy design. It's not poor because it doesn't work. It's bad design because it explicitly contradicts the design goals set forth two months ago. If they're not going to follow their own design goals, what's the point of even making them?

[EDIT]
I want to explicitly address mechanical design. I think everyone has heard the initialization/acronym KISS with regards to design. For example, if the problem is hit points, the simple thing to do is change hit points rather than add new levels. For example - start everyone with three hit dice at first level (and use the "dials" to suggest 1HD for grittier play). The problem I have with the "just start at third level" argument isn't because it's difficult to do. The problem I have (with regards to mechanics) is that it encourages lazy and convoluted design.
 
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Either you have to start at 3, or I have to start at 0. There's no way around it.

Even if you never want to play at Apprentice tier, starting at 3 solves so many problems (hit points, multiclassing) that I really don't understand the argument against it.
A few reasons, which have been covered. But there's a few biggies for me.

(1) It abbreviates the level range for the kind of game I'm looking for. I'd rather see it expand downward, either below 1st or outside the normal heroic class/level system. (So, your apprentices may not have a class until they make it to 1st level.)
(2) Higher levels carry baggage with them beyond hit points. I do want a simpler starting point, but I also want a baseline of competence.

-O
 

I've played third edition games starting at first, third, fifth, tenth, fifteenth, and twentieth levels. The group picks the level of power and complexity they're looking for for a campaign, and then choose the level to match. It's a mechanism that works very well.

So, I'm very glad to see the apprentice tier within the level structure. I'm also glad for the multi-classing implications.
 

I think this implementation is awful.

Once upon a time, way back in January of 2013, there were a series of L&L articles that detailed the current goals of DDN. In particular, this article detailing the "Advanced" rules talked about the concept of "dials" - that the rules can be adjusted to fit a play-style, or rules can be stacked on top of the "Standard" rule set. To me, this seems like exactly the sort of thing that should fall under that banner. In fact, many of the examples in the cited article specifically point at grittier play. To quote Mike from the current L&L: "Adventurer tier covers most of what we consider to be the standard D&D experience." I thought the Standard rules were supposed to be covering the standard D&D experience. That's why they were called Standard.

Mike further says, "most experienced groups will simply jump straight to adventurer tier..." In essence, this means eschewing the Standard rules altogether for most groups (his words, not mine). Since most players will gain experience by playing the game, you would expect any given player/group to run the Apprentice tier once, maybe twice. Unless, of course, you're going for a certain style of game - in which case, see above. Now we're at a point where most groups aren't even running the Standard game. Sure, the change is pretty minor. However, per their own design goals, spinning those dials, changing the rules, was supposed to be relegated to the whole Advanced modules thing.

I have no qualms with the whole "gritty fantasy" feel, and I enjoy playing it as much as I enjoy playing heroic fantasy. I would buy the hell out of a module that had Apprentice levels, rules for more realistic and/or lethal play, and so forth. But this is shoddy design. It's not poor because it doesn't work. It's bad design because it explicitly contradicts the design goals set forth two months ago. If they're not going to follow their own design goals, what's the point of even making them?
I think you're confusing two things. Basic/Standard/Advanced represent modes of product implementation. It's what you buy. The tier system mentioned here represents game implementation. It's how you play.
 

Good point!

All said, I'm going to be very pissed off this time if they reveal it's an april fool.

Me too. But I can imagine this funny scenario where wotc makes this april's fool article, only to be unexpectingly loved by the fans. Pressed by popular demand they take what was meant to be a joke and put it into the game for real :)
 

Also, if 3rd is the new 1st, people who want to start with more powerful, versatile characters are now... What? Starting at 5th? 6th?

I understand the desire for less-powerful characters at the start of a game. I really do. I think this is a bad implementation of the concept.

-O
 


I think you're confusing two things. Basic/Standard/Advanced represent modes of product implementation. It's what you buy. The tier system mentioned here represents game implementation. It's how you play.

First off, I take issue with your definition of B/S/A. While that division may certainly lend itself to marketing, per the L&L articles it's clear they're meant as a mode of rules integration. For example, here Mike states, "We fully expect that groups will mix the basic and standard rules."

Given that definition, there is no inherent difference between rules integration and "how you play." The two are intrinsically linked. Here Mike states, "With the advanced rules, we assume that players and DMs are experienced with RPGs, know what they're doing, and want something different." From that statement, and the following list of concepts, it's clear that is what the design goals are as well.
 


(1) It abbreviates the level range for the kind of game I'm looking for. I'd rather see it expand downward, either below 1st or outside the normal heroic class/level system. (So, your apprentices may not have a class until they make it to 1st level.)

Actually... all it does is remove two levels of higher power "stuff" that has to be created in an effort to make gaining a level worthwhile. And inevitably, that additional "stuff" leads to more confusion or more overpoweredness or more delay while playing the game.

Rather than 15 levels worth of "stuff" you get if you started at Level 1... you instead get 13 by starting at Level 3. What exactly do you think you are missing out on by not getting those two extra levels of "stuff"?

And what if they suddenly decided to move levels 16 and 17 to the Adventurer tier? Would all of a sudden your game now open up into rainbows and delight because you got those two extra levels? I find it hard to believe that having 15 levels of a "tier" is somehow several times in magnitude greater in enjoyment than only having 13. Especially considering both of them are more than any particular tier of 4E to begin with.
 

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