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Legends & Lore: A Bit More on Feats

I think fewer, more powerful feats is a mistake. Fewer feats means less customization, and equating them with the periodic ability score increases is just going to encourage more booster feats that serve optimization and little else.

Feats ought to give options, not bonuses. As long as they give bonuses, bounded accuracy is a pipe dream.
 

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What if the smaller "feats" (stuff like weapon and armor proficiencies, new languages, new skills like riding, etc) moved from feats to campaign-based play (costing time and money to train with a mentor)?
 


Feats ought to give options, not bonuses. As long as they give bonuses, bounded accuracy is a pipe dream.

I also think that no-bonus feats will be best.

We still have the old problem that feats have always been a "catch-all" category. I am fine with this, because I think it's very nice if the same system can be used by some to improve their combat abilities and by others to improve something totally different. I hate siloing!

But combat feats don't need to be just bonus-based.

What if the smaller "feats" (stuff like weapon and armor proficiencies, new languages, new skills like riding, etc) moved from feats to campaign-based play (costing time and money to train with a mentor)?

There are definitely some characters addition that must be available in some form to characters at mid-levels (ie after character creation): proficiencies, new skills, new spells, languages and maybe something more. This stuff is class-indipendent (except maybe spells) so the access cannot come only through class and race...

I would hate siloing these just for balance reason. I understand that some people only care about balance, but I just can't accept that I have to pick up a new proficiency or skill or language because everybody else does, and then not use it. If I get something because I must even if I never plan to use it, that IS a form of game imbalance, IMHO.

In 3e, a new skill could be worth one feat, and also a weapon proficiency. Probably also a tool proficiency would have been worth one feat. A language might be weak, but still acceptable as a feat (tho it depends on how much stress the DM puts on languages).

Actually, if they work hard on designing good applications of tool proficiencies, each of them can be worth 2 old feats, and if they don't grant more skills than now, a whole new skill might also be worth such.

So maybe a compromise can be found in new feats being worth twice the old (rather than x3), and then grant only a +1 ability score increase (and find some other benefits for odd ability scores).
 
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This reminds me of the design space filled with feats that granted +2/+2 bonuses to a combination of two skills in the 3.5 era, and how we all loved that...

I don't follow your logic here. Almost all those feats were terrible because they didn't balance well against other feats. +2/+2 wasn't worth the price of admission. Gaining training in a single skill wasn't in 4E either, but aquiring a new skill was often a worthwhile perk as part of a different feat that operated more like a bundle. Dodge was awful in 3.X, but the only way they could manage the over-the-top stuff like Uber-cleave and Spring Attack was to essentially levy penalties to be paid via bad feats on the way up to the shiny stuff at the top of a dependency chain.

Designing and balancing when abilities come in bundles is a lot more flexible and feasible. Smaller things like gaining a language or a circumstantial bonus can be included in this system much more easily and less painfully (for the players) than depending of prerequisite chains spanning multiple levels to justify larger and smaller abilities in a system with more granular player control.

- Mary Lund
 

I don't follow your logic here. Almost all those feats were terrible because they didn't balance well against other feats. +2/+2 wasn't worth the price of admission. Gaining training in a single skill wasn't in 4E either, but aquiring a new skill was often a worthwhile perk as part of a different feat that operated more like a bundle. Dodge was awful in 3.X, but the only way they could manage the over-the-top stuff like Uber-cleave and Spring Attack was to essentially levy penalties to be paid via bad feats on the way up to the shiny stuff at the top of a dependency chain.

Designing and balancing when abilities come in bundles is a lot more flexible and feasible. Smaller things like gaining a language or a circumstantial bonus can be included in this system much more easily and less painfully (for the players) than depending of prerequisite chains spanning multiple levels to justify larger and smaller abilities in a system with more granular player control.

- Mary Lund

It was a snark remark on your idea that combining the smaller parts of which a mega-feat is made, would open design space, i.e. that it is an opportunity for designers to fill splatbooks with feats that grant X+Y+Z, A+B+C and then X+Y+A, X+Y+B, X+Y+C, X+Z+A, X+Z+B, X+Z+C, and so on and so on...

If that's a good opportunity based on having mega-feats that are easily "disassembable", I want to point out that we already had them disassembled in the first place when each part was a single, smaller feats.

This is why it reminded me of the +2/+2 feats: once they realized they could easily make more like the original Alertness, we started to see lots of them, while it would have been so much simpler to have one feat granting +2 to two skills of choice.

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I understand your idea that designing a bundle can be better for balance, for instance those Dodge+Mobility+SpringAttack together would have less problems if e.g. Mobility is used more rarely or worth less, as long as the whole package is worth right. A weak and a strong "sub-feat" together would compensate each other.

This is the way classes are designed, so that they don't have to worry if wizard's spells are much better than a wizard's knowledge bonus.

What I want to point out however, that this may not really be the best approach to feats for 2 reasons:

1) Feats are (or at least were, until now) meant to customize your PC on the smaller level, kind of like fine-tuning. Maybe one PC wanted to learn a new weapon, another wanted to shoot 2 arrows in the same round, the other one wanted to be more protected against poisons.

5e had a great idea for those who don't like fine-tuning: Specialties. Want to become a weapon-master, a sniper, or a poison master? Take the whole specialty, and let it suggest feats for you.

With mega-feats, we simply lose this level of fine-tuning (unless we want to wait until supplement #38 comes up with the "right" combination of sub-feats). We do not gain anything new, because we already had those "bundles" in the form of Specialties.

2) Classes, which use the "bundle" design approach, grant their abilities gradually over many levels. Feats grant their abilities immediately, all at once, so if we now have mega-feats, we are going to have significant complexity bumps whenever our PC gains a feat. Of course, spellcasters get similar (or bigger) bumps whenever they gain a new spell level, but still this is not so nice IMO, if we could just have the same spread over more levels (this assumes the rate of mega-feats will be 2-3 times slower than the current rate of feats by level, but it might not be so...).

They said before that mega-feats will be used to represent prestige classes. But the whole point of prestige classes was the progression of getting those abilities. Not that the 3ed prestige classes were usually a great design (they were not), they suffered from the opposite problem of being too "empty". Still, Specialties were much better in that regard, because they traced a progression rather than getting a sudden bump.
 

HEAVY ARMOR WARRIOR

Prerequisite: Heavy Armor Proficiency.
Combat: The character gains damage reduction from slashing, piercing and bludgeon sources equal to his Constitution modifier while wearing heavy armor.
Exploration: The amount of time before fatigue sets in while wearing heavy armor is significantly reduced <insert actual rule text here>.
Interaction: The warrior is an imposing sight and the character receives a +2 bonus to intimidate lesser-armored foes and a +2 bonus in attemts at diplomacy with knightly types.

Obviously, much more work would need to be put in to clean this up/align it with the ruleset/divorce it a bit more from specific fiction (possibly).

Seems a little forced. Not a bad idea at the core, but it's a stretch for the Interaction, at least. This might be a vote for turning it into something a little more meaty, like

KNIGHT-PROTECTOR
Proficiency: You gain Heavy Armor Proficiency.
Combat: CON mod DR when wearing heavy armor.
Exploration: When you take the Rear Guard position, you gain a +X bonus vs. attempts to surprise the party.
Interaction: You have a positive reputation in your homeland. NPCs from there are automatically considered Friendly.

Give the PC a role in the world, rather than just "I use armor good." That role uses armor well, but it isn't DEFINED just by armor. It also gives the DMs a meaty hook for saying, "Hey, this random shopkeep NPC is apparently from your homeland, now you get a discount!" or whatnot.
 

Seems a little forced. Not a bad idea at the core, but it's a stretch for the Interaction, at least. This might be a vote for turning it into something a little more meaty, like

KNIGHT-PROTECTOR
Proficiency: You gain Heavy Armor Proficiency.
Combat: CON mod DR when wearing heavy armor.
Exploration: When you take the Rear Guard position, you gain a +X bonus vs. attempts to surprise the party.
Interaction: You have a positive reputation in your homeland. NPCs from there are automatically considered Friendly.

Give the PC a role in the world, rather than just "I use armor good." That role uses armor well, but it isn't DEFINED just by armor. It also gives the DMs a meaty hook for saying, "Hey, this random shopkeep NPC is apparently from your homeland, now you get a discount!" or whatnot.

It might be meatier, but it's also more narrowly-defined. A player whose character is a mercenary or criminal isn't going to have any interest in such a feat, and a campaign which takes the players on a journey through ever more distant lands will serve the Interaction part of the feat poorly.

You could maybe come up with half a dozen more variants to cover various types of characters who favour heavy armour, but then you're getting into feat proliferation and the ridiculously bloated feat lists of late 3.5e and 4e.
 

MarkB said:
A player whose character is a mercenary or criminal isn't going to have any interest in such a feat, and a campaign which takes the players on a journey through ever more distant lands will serve the Interaction part of the feat poorly.

I think this is broadly acceptable. A feat doesn't need to be generic enough to appeal to all characters -- that just ensures that it won't really appeal to anyone. It probably does need to apply to everyone (given that this is compared to a +2 ability score bump!), so we can drop the limitation on the interaction.

MarkB said:
You could maybe come up with half a dozen more variants to cover various types of characters who favour heavy armour, but then you're getting into feat proliferation and the ridiculously bloated feat lists of late 3.5e and 4e.

OR, you stop relying on the books to give you rules for every corner-case and empower DMs to make their own feats for their own players.

If a player is like "I like this feat, and I want the combat bit and the exploration bit, but I'm a GRIMDARK BADASS, so can we swap out this Interaction bit for something else?", the DM can be like "Sure. Make it Advantage on all Intimidate checks, then," and the designers can be like "Great, now that we've taught DMs to do that, we don't need to provide 1000 ever-so-slightly different options."
 

It might be meatier, but it's also more narrowly-defined. A player whose character is a mercenary or criminal isn't going to have any interest in such a feat, and a campaign which takes the players on a journey through ever more distant lands will serve the Interaction part of the feat poorly.

You could maybe come up with half a dozen more variants to cover various types of characters who favour heavy armour, but then you're getting into feat proliferation and the ridiculously bloated feat lists of late 3.5e and 4e.

While you are right, I'm not convinced that is a bad thing. I really like the ideas of feats and prestige classes being merged in to sizable flavor packages.
 

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