Legends & Lore: A Few Rules Updates

[mlund]

That does make it less deterministic when building the environment, which is nice. However, the PC with the greatest passive perception check is still the source of all perception for the party in most circumstances. That is, anything a given PC can find the PC with greatest passive perception can also find, and anything the PC with greatest passive perception can't find can't be found by any PC with a lower passive perception.

Exactly. Rolling a trap / environment check vs. Passive Perception was the first and most obvious solution that came to my head too. Then I realized about a minute later that it made only the highest passive perception in the party matter, and then I concluded that such a thing was incredibly lame and took away one of the most simple and fun parts of helping to explore when you're not the designated trap-monkey of the party.

I was taken with the idea of a static vs. static comparison (the trap / hazard / secret has a Passive Stealth score) and then rolling a single check against a random member of the party to add the variance back in while giving everyone a chance to be useful (or a liability).

This is what I'd prefer:

At Feature Generation: Each hazard / trap / secret has a Stealth Modifier equal to a die roll range. A poor quality or obvious hazard might range from a penalty to a small bonus like -2 to 3 (1d6-3) while a devilish trap might run from 4-9 (1d6+3).

At Encounter Time: First, make a Stealth Check for the feature (d20 roll + modifier) against the Passive Perception of a random party member. On a failed check that character spots the hidden feature. On a successful check, add the feature's Stealth Modifier to 10 to to get its Static Stealth value. It is noticed by any other character with an equal or higher Passive Wisdom (Perception) check.

This method scales from solos to large groups without increasing overhead. It also makes having a point-man an asset without making the perception skills of all the other party members a moot point. It also adds some old-school randomized volatility for a dungeon crawl to keep the exploration pillar lively.

- Marty Lund

 

[Jan van Leyden]

Hopefully they do something similar for PC stealth (since, IMO, players shouldn't know how well they're sneaking--they should always think they're being super stealthy).

Not necessarily so. If you'v stepped on a twig or flushed some birds, it's pretty obvious that you aren't super setalthy.

Concerning rolling for traps to "hide" from the PCs: this feels seriously weird. A still active trap in an ages old dungeon becomes suddenly obvious (by rolling a 1)? If you do it this way without interpreting the players' description of their characters' actions, it becomes very random. And if you include the action descriptions you probably don't need a fancy system for this situation.

 

[Ichneumon]

Given it's D&D, I'm not gonna say that a trap can't try to blend itself into the background when a group of PCs approach, especially if they're in a particularly fey dungeon. But I can see the problem with using this as a default explanation for traps rolling to hide.

So, if I use this mechanic, my justification will be that it's a belated check for how well the trap constructor actually hid the trap. A reasonable default is that he/she had a 14 or 15 INT (+2) and the same proficiency bonus as the PCs. This gives the PCs an edge on the contest.

 

[Klaus]

A trap "rolling" stealth is a representation of the trap's original builder using his craft to conceal the contraption. If it makes the DM feel better, roll in advance (representing the builder's original skill roll), and use that score against the party's Passive Perception.

 

[I'm A Banana]

So what is my PC doing when I roll a Will save vs charm or confusion? When I roll a CON save vs swallowing poisoned food? When I roll initiative?

1) When your PC is rolling a Will save vs. Charm or Confusion, they're attempting to shake off the effects, clear their head. They actively think of things that anchor their minds (perhaps something violent, perhaps something loving, whatever stirs a major emotion). They might shake their heads, or bite their tongues, or slap their own face a bit.

2) When your PC is rolling a CON save vs. poisoned food, they're attempting to hurk up the poison, to steel their digestive system against the incoming tide, to calm themselves so their heart doesn't beat the poison rapidly through their body, to breathe deeply so that their liver can process the venom safely.

3) When you roll initiative, your PC is leaping "into action," trying to accomplish the thing that they will eventually accomplish on their turn, but right away. They're trying to "take initiative" in that they're trying to do their thing before the enemy gets a chance to do its thing, as fast as possible.

Since inanimate objects can't do things, it doesn't feel right to roll for them. They are what they are -- the element of randomness in this scenario is not the thing that his hidden, but the observer.

Since it doesn't play like the story flows, I'm not really a big fan.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

A trap "rolling" stealth is a representation of the trap's original builder using his craft to conceal the contraption. If it makes the DM feel better, roll in advance (representing the builder's original skill roll), and use that score against the party's Passive Perception.

The weird feeling is due to the characters being passive, while the "environment" (or long dead trap builder ) is active.

I guess its just the great randomness of 1D20 which irks me. Say, the characters explore the centuries old tomb. They've found several skeletons of their unlucky precursors. And now, while cautiously proceeding to the next door, (DM rolls a 1 or scratches the 1 off his list of rolls) a trap's trigger pops out of the wall, impossible to be missed by even the most unobservant of creatures.

Sorry, it just feels too random to me. There isn't even the modicum of differentiation which you have when all players roll for their charcters.

 

[pemerton]

Since inanimate objects can't do things, it doesn't feel right to roll for them.

I guess I just don't feel the force of this. If I can roll for a trap's attack - which can't be determing anything random about the trap (a deterministic mechanism) and hence must reflect random stuff about the position and movement of the PCs, etc - then I can roll for its obscurement too.

 

[DEFCON 1]

The weird feeling is due to the characters being passive, while the "environment" (or long dead trap builder ) is active.

I guess its just the great randomness of 1D20 which irks me. Say, the characters explore the centuries old tomb. They've found several skeletons of their unlucky precursors. And now, while cautiously proceeding to the next door, (DM rolls a 1 or scratches the 1 off his list of rolls) a trap's trigger pops out of the wall, impossible to be missed by even the most unobservant of creatures.

Sorry, it just feels too random to me. There isn't even the modicum of differentiation which you have when all players roll for their charcters.

Well, then don't use a d20. You're the Dungeon Master, you can set the DC however you want. Roll 2d10 to get a DC if you'd prefer.

The only reason this idea of rolling dice to set the trap DC is being suggested is because some DMs don't want to just assign DCs to traps, knowing full well what their player's passive perception is (and thereby determining upon creation whether or not the trap will be found automatically.)

Of course... even beyond all of this... there is a very easy way to do traps in your game without needing to worry about passive perception or who rolls or whatnot. Quite simply... don't put traps in random locations throughout your dungeon.

Here's the deal: The reason why players spend all their time checking every grid on the map with a 10 foot pole, searching for traps, secret doors, etc. etc... is because the game has been notorious for putting those things in completely random places with no rhyme nor reason, nor using any descriptive objects as masking agents that would tipped a player to ask to actually look at said thing (and thereby trigger an Active Perception roll). And enough people have blundered into a tripwire across some random hallway in a dungeon complex (which is really protecting nothing whatsoever and is only there to give a trap for the rogue to disarm)... to make them gunshy about just walking through dungeons. Or a "secret" door is for some reason built in the middle of some 75 foot corridor leading to another path, and yet somehow the seams of the door are able to be masked by... ??? (nothing)... so that it isn't blatantly obvious a door is there and is "secret".

So we need to retrain those players. Only put traps and secret doors in places that makes sense that someone would actually place one there, plus make sure you describe the areas in such a way that would indicate what could be used to make these things "hidden" or "secret". That corridor with the secret door? Line it with tapestries so the players might be inspired to look behind them and find the door. That tripwire? Make sure it's blocking an area that is relatively obvious needs protecting... like the PCs can hear voices beyond because it's a campsite or something.

You do all that... and you don't NEED to have PCs using "passive perception", because they know enough not to otherwise ask to "look for traps" every 5 feet because they know they won't be there. They'll know you aren't trying to just screw with them for no reason. It's really all down to you as a DM.

 

[Nellisir]

Works for me. I'll see how the passive perception thing goes, but I evened up all the racial speeds years ago.

 

[Klaus]

The weird feeling is due to the characters being passive, while the "environment" (or long dead trap builder ) is active.

I guess its just the great randomness of 1D20 which irks me. Say, the characters explore the centuries old tomb. They've found several skeletons of their unlucky precursors. And now, while cautiously proceeding to the next door, (DM rolls a 1 or scratches the 1 off his list of rolls) a trap's trigger pops out of the wall, impossible to be missed by even the most unobservant of creatures.

Sorry, it just feels too random to me. There isn't even the modicum of differentiation which you have when all players roll for their charcters.

But passive Perception doesn't eliminate actively searching for something. It just means that the trap (or the trap builder's camouflaging skills) didn't catch the party's slightly-more-than-cursory glances. The DM tells the party everything they see (which could even include a hint that something is off, like a smear of blood on the wall where a hammer-trap usually hits), and the party decides whether to pursue a more in-depth examination.