ExploderWizard
Hero
"Passive" is gamespeak for letting the mechanics play the game for you. Its kind of handy actually. This way the game can continue as players update Facebook, watch youtube videos, etc.
Legends & Lore: A Few Rules Updates
- Thread starter Plaguescarred
- Start date
"Passive" is gamespeak for letting the mechanics play the game for you. Its kind of handy actually. This way the game can continue as players update Facebook, watch youtube videos, etc.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
I'm iffy on passive perception. In ~14 years of having some form of it in the game (either taking 10 in 3e or passive perception in 4e), I've practically never seen it used consistently or intentionally. It's a good concept, but there's clearly some in-play issues with it.
And the in-play issue seems to be what's referenced upthread: when encountering something that might surprise you, dice should probably be rolled. No sense in making it a binary. And since it might surprise you, those dice should probably be more on the DM's side. No sense in having someone roll a 1 and fail to notice something only to meta-game it and presume that there was something there to notice.
Which is a vote in favor for having perception be passive (you could maybe just use WIS score if you don't want the skill), and traps and the like having active rolls to hide...but that seems weird, especially in the context of a trap. The trap's not actively doing anything, so it should use a passive score rather than an active roll, yah? The same is pretty true with a goblin hiding in the shadows: hiding is not doing anything, so it feels weird to roll a dice to represent how well you don't do things.
And all of this just really highlights the redonkulousness of using a skill check to determine something so important (yeah, your investment in Perception is totally the equal of your investment in Craft (Underwater Basket Weaving), who told you otherwise?!)...but a perception check is probably better than the arbitrary d6 roll of previous e's....so it sounds like this is an area rife with potential discovery
Were I to burn the perception/stealth system to the ground and start over again, here's what I might do:
[sblock=What You See, What You Don't]
Normally: You can see everything not actively trying to hide from you, or disguised from sight in some way.
Stealth/Disguise/Bluff/Etc.: An attempt to deceive your senses trumps the normal situation, without a roll required. Hiding takes some active involvement (it's something that takes some time/resource), but it is automatically effective against any normal observation. If you hide, you're hidden from casual observation, period, and can surprise.
Awareness/Insight/Perception/Etc.: If you suspect something is trying to deceive your senses, you can spend some time trying to defeat that deception. It is a thing you must actively choose to do (ie, it costs time/some resource), and when you do, you make a roll vs. the other party's stealth rating (something like 10 + the level of the effect). You are aware of creatures whose Stealth rating you beat, and they cannot surprise you as long as you keep this action active.
Olde-Skool Elves: Elves do not need to choose to try and defeat the stealth rating of a secret door: the DM must make the roll for the elf in this situation.
Eagle-Eyed Rangers: Rangers get a bonus to perception checks to defeat the stealth rating of creatures hidden in the wilderness.
Alertness: Characters with this trait/feat/proficiency/whatever get an automatic roll whenever they would be surprised to notice the creature just before the surprise round.
Sneaky: +1 bonus to your stealth rating.
...etc....
What This Does: Baselie < Action < High Roll + Action. Stealth is powerful as it automatically trumps the normal situation. It will also trump an unlucky/penalized/unskilled attempt to defeat it.
A character must take an actual action and use some resource (even if only time) to defeat stealth. This reflects the mindset of the character: if we suspect something's wrong, we must look and find out what it is.
Certain character traits/feats/whatever might make the DM roll or give you an early-warning roll, but that represents an even BIGGER investment.
.....I dunno, maybe...
[/sblock]
And the in-play issue seems to be what's referenced upthread: when encountering something that might surprise you, dice should probably be rolled. No sense in making it a binary. And since it might surprise you, those dice should probably be more on the DM's side. No sense in having someone roll a 1 and fail to notice something only to meta-game it and presume that there was something there to notice.
Which is a vote in favor for having perception be passive (you could maybe just use WIS score if you don't want the skill), and traps and the like having active rolls to hide...but that seems weird, especially in the context of a trap. The trap's not actively doing anything, so it should use a passive score rather than an active roll, yah? The same is pretty true with a goblin hiding in the shadows: hiding is not doing anything, so it feels weird to roll a dice to represent how well you don't do things.
And all of this just really highlights the redonkulousness of using a skill check to determine something so important (yeah, your investment in Perception is totally the equal of your investment in Craft (Underwater Basket Weaving), who told you otherwise?!)...but a perception check is probably better than the arbitrary d6 roll of previous e's....so it sounds like this is an area rife with potential discovery
Were I to burn the perception/stealth system to the ground and start over again, here's what I might do:
[sblock=What You See, What You Don't]
Normally: You can see everything not actively trying to hide from you, or disguised from sight in some way.
Stealth/Disguise/Bluff/Etc.: An attempt to deceive your senses trumps the normal situation, without a roll required. Hiding takes some active involvement (it's something that takes some time/resource), but it is automatically effective against any normal observation. If you hide, you're hidden from casual observation, period, and can surprise.
Awareness/Insight/Perception/Etc.: If you suspect something is trying to deceive your senses, you can spend some time trying to defeat that deception. It is a thing you must actively choose to do (ie, it costs time/some resource), and when you do, you make a roll vs. the other party's stealth rating (something like 10 + the level of the effect). You are aware of creatures whose Stealth rating you beat, and they cannot surprise you as long as you keep this action active.
Olde-Skool Elves: Elves do not need to choose to try and defeat the stealth rating of a secret door: the DM must make the roll for the elf in this situation.
Eagle-Eyed Rangers: Rangers get a bonus to perception checks to defeat the stealth rating of creatures hidden in the wilderness.
Alertness: Characters with this trait/feat/proficiency/whatever get an automatic roll whenever they would be surprised to notice the creature just before the surprise round.
Sneaky: +1 bonus to your stealth rating.
...etc....
What This Does: Baselie < Action < High Roll + Action. Stealth is powerful as it automatically trumps the normal situation. It will also trump an unlucky/penalized/unskilled attempt to defeat it.
A character must take an actual action and use some resource (even if only time) to defeat stealth. This reflects the mindset of the character: if we suspect something's wrong, we must look and find out what it is.
Certain character traits/feats/whatever might make the DM roll or give you an early-warning roll, but that represents an even BIGGER investment.
.....I dunno, maybe...
[/sblock]
DEFCON 1 said:
DMZ2112
Chaotic Looseleaf
I'll leave this one to the master of perception himself:
Sherlock Holmes said:
I agree about everyone being auto observant. Unless you tell me you are looking around, I'm going to assume you aren't.
TwoSix
Everyone's literal second-favorite poster
Hmm. I'm the total opposite. I assume adventurers in a trap-filled monster lair are ALWAYS looking around, unless they're some sort of kender/Xaositect/Malkavian type.
AntiStateQuixote
Enemy of the State
Exactly. Use passive perception as a rules short cut. Assume I'm rolling perception in secret and getting a 10 all the time.
If/when the player tells me something specific about the character's behavior that warrants a special role (with a bonus) or maybe no roll at all (automatic success for doing it exactly right) . . . then I resort to some other mechanic handling.
Vyvyan Basterd
Adventurer
This got old for me long ago. It's very Gygaxian (or at least falsely attributed to him). This can lead to adversarial situations where the players feel the DM is trying to trick them, i.e. "DM: You never said you looked up!"
This can lead to adversarial situations where the DM feels the players are trying to cheat the system, i.e. "Players (after yet another 5-foot step): We search, we look up, is there anything on the floor? Is there anyhting on the celing? We listen! What do we hear? Is the hallway an illusion? I make my save to disbelieve!"
I prefer to assume that a party in dangerous situations (which they tend to get themselves into alot) would stay alert. Then I call for a roll in the exact moment they would walk into that pit trap or ambush, etc. Make the check, you spot the danger in the nick of time. Fail the check, you walk right into it. It makes it active for them and reduces the disconnect between DM and player expectations, while limiting the meta-game thinking of rolling as soon as you enter an area.
Of course if the party asks to search before proceeding I won't deny them.
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AntiStateQuixote
Enemy of the State
Hey! I don't remember DMing for you. Sorry about that. I was kind of a jackass back then.
TwoSix
Everyone's literal second-favorite poster
"Passive" is gamespeak for letting the mechanics play the game for you. Its kind of handy actually. This way the game can continue as players update Facebook, watch youtube videos, etc.
Pretty much. Keeps the game moving until you get to the good stuff (the combat, or an NPC to talk to).
"Passive" is gamespeak for letting the mechanics play the game for you. Its kind of handy actually. This way the game can continue as players update Facebook, watch youtube videos, etc.
Funny... I always thought "passive" was gamespeak for "not wanting to listen to the players dictate the same laundry list of actions they're doing every 5 feet just to make sure they don't blunder into any stupid random trap that gets placed indiscriminately throughout the dungeon." It's kind of handy actually. This way the game can continue without the DM going insane after the first 20 minutes.
