D&D 5E Legends & Lore - A Retrospective

jodyjohnson

Adventurer
My take-away from the Amazon numbers is that products people are willing to wait for and get the discount are ranked higher than those they might run down to the FLGS to buy. Prime example being the DM Screens vs. the DMGs, and H2 & H3 over H1.

I'd venture that many who bought HotDQ in the store and want RoT will pick it up at the online discount unless they were actually finished with HotDQ and were stuck waiting.
 

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Imaro

Legend
I agree on your first point, but those numbers don't mean much.

We have this for example:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?243902-Amazon-Sales-Rankings-amazing-data!



This is about 4 months after 4E came out, and those are some pretty mediocre numbers. (BW of comparison, the controversial Hoard of the Dragon Queen is at about 2200 right now, and you can see how that compares to, well, anything up there). There may have actually been something of a rebound in 2009.

For example, Arcane Power actually started pretty strongly, almost getting into the top 100, which is huge for a supplement:

https://web.archive.org/web/2009042...m/Arcane-Power-4th-D-Supplement/dp/0786949570

This again is 2009, so there could have been a rebound as the game was picked up by more tables. Some people did like it. Just not all of them.

I'm not commenting on whether people did or didn't like the splatbooks... I am commenting on the fact that if PHB 2 and Arcane Power sold in nearly equal numbers they should be ranked near each other. When comparing PHB 2 to the other splatbooks there is a major disparity in rank (though notably, and I think further proving my conclusion, the splatbooks themselves don't have this giant disparity)... which seems to indicate the PHB 2 overall (since we are for all intents and purposes at the end of the edition's lifecycle) sold way better than the others. It also seems to indicate that by using the outlier as an example for the whole line your conclusion probably isn't very accurate.
 

TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
I'm not commenting on whether people did or didn't like the splatbooks... I am commenting on the fact that if PHB 2 and Arcane Power sold in nearly equal numbers they should be ranked near each other. When comparing PHB 2 to the other splatbooks there is a major disparity in rank (though notably, and I think further proving my conclusion, the splatbooks themselves don't have this giant disparity)... which seems to indicate the PHB 2 overall (since we are for all intents and purposes at the end of the edition's lifecycle) sold way better than the others. It also seems to indicate that by using the outlier as an example for the whole line your conclusion probably isn't very accurate.

But again, Arcane Power has a really good initial ranking for a supplement. In general they don't sale that well. Which is also your point, I get that, but his point was that in 2009 the game was far from dead, and we have evidence of that. We have a whole other thread of amzon numbers for PHBs...compared to those PHB2 looks good, they don't look somehow bad and hence indicating some big trouble.
 

Imaro

Legend
But again, Arcane Power has a really good initial ranking for a supplement. In general they don't sale that well. Which is also your point, I get that, but his point was that in 2009 the game was far from dead, and we have evidence of that. We have a whole other thread of amzon numbers for PHBs...compared to those PHB2 looks good, they don't look somehow bad and hence indicating some big trouble.

His point wasn't that the game wasn't dead but that the entire game was selling well until essentials appeared on the scene... to prove that we need to look at a whole-istic view not a snapshot of the month it was released...

Also I'm curious...what was PHB 2 ranked at in the month it was released? Is there a considerable gap between it and the supplemental books? If so then it's still not an apt comparison.
 

Iosue

Legend
Legends & Lore #4 - Stay Classy
March 8, 2011
Original EN World thread

This week, Mike Mearls looked at class complexity. First, he looks at the fighter -- generally the simplest class throughout D&D history, and compares the number of unique steps required to complete character generation (not counting things common through all editions, such as picking a race, generating ability scores, etc.) By his count, there are 6 extra steps in 1e, 11 extra steps in 2e, 16 extra steps in 3e, and 18 extra steps in 4e, indicating a marked movement towards complexity with each successive edition.

Mearls notes that not only were there higher raw numbers of steps, but more math in play as well. While in 1e and 2e finding one's to-hit numbers/THAC0 or AC was generally a matter of looking up a number on a table and maybe adding one or two modifiers, in 3e and 4e attacks, AC, defenses, and saving throws were all effected by a variety of modifiers, many of which depended on which feats one took.

Another layer of complexity was added via what kind of choices players had to make.

Mearls said:
On top of that, those choices grew only more complex. Choosing weapon proficiencies is fairly simple. You can look at the weapon table, find a few armaments you like, and write those down on your character sheet. A feat, on the other hand, requires you to read through a dozen or so choices, consider their effects, and note the modifiers or ability that each chosen feat adds to your character. A feat is active—or at least requires an active calculation or modification to a character; as you gain more of them, they build on each other. In contrast, choosing a weapon proficiency focuses your options, and occupies roughly the same mental space and time as buying gear. You could just as easily instruct a player to buy no more than four weapons.

He ends the article with a question, to be taken up in the following article:
Mearls said:
I’d imagine that a non-gamer looking at the above chart would wonder exactly why there are three times as many steps for making a 4th Edition fighter as a 1st Edition one. As gamers, we know that more work and options can be more engaging and interesting. However, the bigger question is this: Why did the game change this way? Chess hasn’t become more complex over time. Monopoly has remained fairly static year after year. What gives?

How did things end up in 5e?
So here things look pretty simple: how many unique steps does 5e have for completing a fighter? I haven't worked it out yet as I type this, but I'm going to hazard it's close to 2e, maybe between 2e and 3e...

Choose Fighting Style
Choose Class Skills: 2
Choose Background
Choose Personality Trait
Choose Ideal
Choose Bond
Choose Flaw
Calculate Attack Bonuses
Calculate Initiative
Calculate Skill Bonuses
Calculate Saving Throws
Calculate Passive Perception
Total Steps: 13

Heh. Right on the money: between 2e and 3e, but closer to 2e. The introduction of Personality Traits really adds to the steps one has to take. If they are ignored, you're looking at 9 steps. Take out backgrounds and skills altogether and you're looking at 5 steps, fewer even than 1e. But interestingly, 5e took a number of different tacks to allow for more (or less) complexity without paring down the steps to the bare minimum. For example, Equipment. Rather than choosing equipment a la carte (often time-consuming in any edition), you can just start with the equipment provided by your background and your class. If using the Basic rules, you don't even have a large list of backgrounds to go through -- just choose one of six. They also chunk some of your skills in with your background, providing the fighter with 4 skills, but only 2 of which he has to choose. Personality traits add to the steps, but handy random tables also allow for quick and easy choices. The game includes both sub-classes and feats, but delays these to later levels (3rd and 4th, respectively, for the fighter -- of course you don't choose these at all if playing with just the Basic rules).

When one talks about levels and dials in 5e, I think character generation is one area where we see their fullest expression. I have much more to say here, but I think I'll save it for some future articles. Character design and classes were a big issue, one that Mearls and Cook would visit many times in the year leading up to the 5e announcement.

Edit: Oh, hey, 1,000 posts! Maybe I should just stop here on a nice, round number. ;)
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
It's worth pointing out that all those background choices can be erased by going with the Quick Build option and rolling randomly for your background traits. So if you wanted to do it even faster, you'd be at 8 choices -- even less than 2e!
 

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
Legends & Lore #3 - Setting the Pace
March 1, 2011
No original EN World thread found

Talk about a prescient article. In this one, Mearls discusses the release schedule of editions throughout history. The impetus for this article was the cancellation of three products from the 2011 schedule. (These were Hero Builder's Handbook, Class Compendium: Heroes of Sword & Spell, and Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium. Material from HBH would eventually show up in Dragon magazine; the Essentials format for the Core 4e classes that were supposed to be in the Class Compendium were eventually released in PDFs, and MME was eventually released in print format in September of 2011.)

OD&D had five supplements in 18 months (Greyhawk; Blackmoor; Eldritch Wizardryl Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes; and Swords & Spells). AD&D emphasized adventures, with the Core Three and only 10 hardcover expansions in 12 years, as well as two boxed campaign sets and some FR sourcebooks. Much of the new material, particularly player-side new material, showed up in Dragon magazine. AD&D 2nd Ed. cut back on hardcovers, but released a metric craptonne of softcover expansions (Mearls says 5 or 6 a month), as well as many boxed sets. Both 3rd and 4th went back to hardcovers - often player-oriented, with only scattered stand-alone adventures published -- people relied on Dungeon magazine for more adventures.

Looking ahead, Mearls seems to question the wisdom of a heavy release schedule.


He then brings up the question of complexity and the difficulties it brings.

It really is funny to read these after all this time. Given that I can't find a thread for this article here at EN World, I surmise that for many people it was just seen as face-saving and butt-covering for the cancellation of three anticipated releases. But really, in hindsight, the above paragraph is meaningless in a 4e context. The horses were already out of the barn. 4e shelves were a mess of complexity, with the core books and twentysome hardcover expansions AND the new Essentials line, with its own version of a DMG, own version of a MM, and two PHBs (the former two coming in boxes). Mearls may have been trying to justify the Essentials roll-out, but it sure looks now like he was looking even further ahead.

Finally, Mearls slips in a little bit of design philosophy --

Yeah, I think he was definitely thinking about 5e at this point.

How did things end up in 5e?
Well, as is clear now, they are drastically cutting back on the release schedule. Mearls put it somewhere (can't find the source now -- an EN World post, maybe?), "If we've put out enough material to last you six months, why would I try to sell you anything else in that time?" The current plan appears to be two big adventure path/campaign type releases a year, supplemented by a few standalone products and web content. Mearls did indeed put the 5e starting point in a big box, and created the online Basic Rules as a smooth, relatively less complex on-ramp to the rest of the game. One strategy that wasn't really talked about in the article (for obvious reasons) was the release of old material as PDFs on D&D Classics. This allows them to make use of past products without having to create print product with high overhead for what may be a limited audience. Want to play in Eberron? Buy a cheap PDF of the 3e or 3.5 campaign book and use this online supplement for PCs. Want to play in the Realms? Choose your favorite version and convert it fairly easy on the fly.

Another aspect of 5e as far as material goes is there's a lot of space to go to without worrying about unbalancing the game too much. Backgrounds being one, and the chunkier feats being another. The big question is how crazy they will go with subclasses, in whatever form, be that new player expansions, a resurrected Dragon magazine, or Unearthed Arcana-type articles.
Ashame he didn't mention the OGL and its impact on saturation.
 

pemerton

Legend
Rather than choosing equipment a la carte (often time-consuming in any edition), you can just start with the equipment provided by your background and your class. If using the Basic rules, you don't even have a large list of backgrounds to go through -- just choose one of six. They also chunk some of your skills in with your background, providing the fighter with 4 skills, but only 2 of which he has to choose. Personality traits add to the steps, but handy random tables also allow for quick and easy choices. The game includes both sub-classes and feats, but delays these to later levels (3rd and 4th, respectively, for the fighter -- of course you don't choose these at all if playing with just the Basic rules).
It's worth pointing out that all those background choices can be erased by going with the Quick Build option and rolling randomly for your background traits.
What's interesting is that the 4e PHB has "quick build" suggestions for each class: pre-packaged powers, skills and feats. Which means, if you use those builds, you only have to choose race, class, quickbuild and gear.

From memory, the 3E PHB contained default gear lists for each class which could eliminate the need to buy stuff.

Why did these acceleration options not gain traction? Is it just about layout/editing? Or is there something deeper?

Another thing: about the only thing I think Essentials got right in its layout is putting class before race. I think its a retrograde design step for 5e to go back to tradition here. (Yes, in the fiction, a character is born into a race before s/he finds herself with a profession; but at the table, nearly everyone decides class and race together, with class typically being the dominant consideration.)

Oh, hey, 1,000 posts! Maybe I should just stop here on a nice, round number.
Please keep posting.
 

Rune

Once A Fool
Another thing: about the only thing I think Essentials got right in its layout is putting class before race. I think its a retrograde design step for 5e to go back to tradition here. (Yes, in the fiction, a character is born into a race before s/he finds herself with a profession; but at the table, nearly everyone decides class and race together, with class typically being the dominant consideration.)

Actually, I have my players choose race, then background, and then class. In theory, it leads to more rounded characters.
 


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