D&D 5E Legends & Lore Article 4/1/14 (Fighter Maneuvers)

I really think Mearls meant that Battle Master is a subclass.

It's true that subclasses have multiple purposes, and are used both as complexity dials and narrative archetypes, so there is no way to play a "simple gladiator" unless they design another subclass for that, or unless you adjust the narrative e.g. use the Warrior subclass to get low-complexity but say you're narratively a gladiator.
I do hope you're wrong about this. I dislike the disconnect of saying you're one thing but not taking that speciality for mechanical reasons. The mechanics should fit the story.

We should definitely expect splatbooks to be full of subclasses for years to come.
Maybe.
For other classes yes, as they exist for narrative reasons as much as mechanical distinction. The fighter subclasses currently seem to only serve a mechanical distinction: simple or complex. And you don't need more variations on that one theme, that's just bloat. It reduces fighter subclasses to whatever new mechanic they support, like spellcasting.
We really don't need five variants on the complex fighter, each with slightly different maneuvers. Just provide different maneuvers.

Base classes include choices at some levels (spells for the Wizard, fighting styles for the Fighter...) which might affect complexity, but I think they want the main complexity dial to be the subclass, so that some players need only make one main choice.
I like the idea of the one-big-choice for players who dislike many, many choices each level and just want to get more powerful and keep playing. But it's nice to be able to opt into more choices, and choices each level. Something D&D5 is really missing at the moment. I hope the complex fighter is something that can be added overtop the class for more complexity and choices at every level, for people who like that sort of building.
Currently, the lack of being able to "build" characters is keeping my players away from D&D5 and still in Pathfinder.
 

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. . . And second, why does any company ever release legitimate info on April Fool's Day....why?!!

Two guesses:
(1) Mearls wasn't finished writing it by early enough on Monday, 31 March 2014 to get it posted that day; or
(2) He was deliberately trying to get us to wonder whether he really meant it.

I'm personally discounting the first of those suggestions, because he just took a short mini-vacation (as described on Twitter), and I would expect him to have finished this article for the article-buffer before doing that.
 

I do hope you're wrong about this. I dislike the disconnect of saying you're one thing but not taking that speciality for mechanical reasons. The mechanics should fit the story.

I think that's precisely what they want: to connect mechanics with story.

But what story fits "gladiator" isn't not necessarily unique, in fact you already mention you can clearly think of a low-complexity gladiator. Perhaps one gladiator is a hulking dumb giant who always wins just by swinging his club with superhuman force, while another is a cunning and highly technical skirmisher. IIRC the previous Gladiator subclass was built around two ideas: technical tricks (represented with the high-complexity mechanic) and some abilities to represent pleasing the crowd and getting boosted in return. Immediately a lot of people liked the maneuvers mechanics (or whatever they were at that point) but contested that they should be forced to play an arena-type gladiator... hence the quick name change to Weapon Master, which now is changed to Battle Master because the maneuvers have expanded beyond matters of skilled weapon use and are more encompassing.

They really are trying to associate mechanics with story IMHO. But at the same time, they absolutely want to stick to their plan of allowing low-complexity and high-complexity characters at the same table, and they pretty much have only feats and subclasses at the moment to dial complexity.

Maybe.
For other classes yes, as they exist for narrative reasons as much as mechanical distinction. The fighter subclasses currently seem to only serve a mechanical distinction: simple or complex. And you don't need more variations on that one theme, that's just bloat. It reduces fighter subclasses to whatever new mechanic they support, like spellcasting.
We really don't need five variants on the complex fighter, each with slightly different maneuvers. Just provide different maneuvers.

It's not only for the mechanical distinction. There are other subclasses planned, mentioned or previously shown.

Indeed the "Warrior" is clearly meant to provide the lowest complexity. IMHO narratively it best represents a veteran, not so much in military sense (thus not someone who's necessarily been part of an army or fought a war) but more generically someone who's been fighting repetitively without directional training. Mostly, his abilities represent increased accuracy in the form of more powerful critical hits.

And by opposite, "Battle Master" is meant to provide highest complexity, but then IMHO they are including maneuvers of different types specifically to let this subclass serve as a basis for multiple narrative concepts. Note that other classes have worked a little bit like this already: the Monk has an elemental subclass, but you can mix and match the elements and be an "Earth Monk" or "Air Monk" or just a mix, and the Barbarian can mix and match different animal abilities. The Battle Master takes this a step further, since obviously someone focusing on weapon tricks is narratively significantly different than someone focusing on inspiring allies.

But other Fighter subclasses serve(d) other purposes. "Eldritch Knight" is announced as a subclass the main purpose of which is to represent a hybrid Fighter/Mage without using the multiclassing rules. That's a very different way of using subclasses.

And then there are truly narrative-based subclasses: the "Knight" we've seen before although removed from the last packet, was meant to represent a noble mounted fighter, and grant mounted combat benefits plus knowledge and social abilities related to his courtly education. The "Samurai" was mentioned as a very probably Fighter subclass, but perhaps not for the core books.


So at least we have 3 ways of using subclasses: complexity control, class hybridization, implementation of a narrative concept.

Other classes have even more uses: shifting focus on different iconic abilities (Bards subclasses used to allow different people's vision on "what the Bard is supposed to be"), encapsulating contested abilities or concepts (one Druid subclass is used to enable wildshape in combat), and perhaps switching mechanics (not yet, but it's still probably under discussion whether spellcasting mechanics could be swapped or at least significantly changed by subclasses).

Clearly, that's A LOT OF STUFF all into the same subclasses framework! :D But if they don't do it with subclasses, people are going to want these things done in other ways anyway...

I like the idea of the one-big-choice for players who dislike many, many choices each level and just want to get more powerful and keep playing. But it's nice to be able to opt into more choices, and choices each level. Something D&D5 is really missing at the moment. I hope the complex fighter is something that can be added overtop the class for more complexity and choices at every level, for people who like that sort of building.
Currently, the lack of being able to "build" characters is keeping my players away from D&D5 and still in Pathfinder.

Let's never forget that it WILL be always possible to mix and match subclasses, so we will be able to increase or decrease complexity of a low- and high- complexity subclass respectively, just by substituting some of its features.

This also means, that a group who revels in customizations, should probably play by picking subclass features a'la carte. That means probably a significant choice at the majority of levels.
 

I play in a lot of sanctioned events so I play with a lot of people I don't know and frankly, I don't care what their personal preference is. I am there for "my" enjoyment and to play the game using "my" hard earned money. If the game were free, then I wouldn't care one way or the other.

Well, I think that helps explain some of the confusion I've had about some of your posts. Though I am not sure why you chose a cooperative socially-oriented game like D&D for you sanctioned gaming events if that is your perspective. I'd think something more competitive, like board gaming, would be more likely to satisfy your needs more often.
 
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I thought of two examples illustrating why not having combat maneuvers as class powers is a good thing:

"My Fighter Trip power gets me a free attack on anything I trip - therefore - I try to trip as often as possible"

-versus-

"The Orc Chieftain is standing on the table smashing the heads of my party members with his warhammer – therefore - I think I'll forgo my usual attack and try and trip him to get him off that table and make him fall down."


Now if 'Fighter Trip' can only be used once been rests I guess that's fine, but my verisimilitude alarm is going off a little.
If its tucked away in an optional fighter path I can live with it.
 

I almost expect something like this.

Fighter. The ogre is charging me? I trip him.
DM: Ok. Make a Strength vs. Dexterity Contest.
Fighter: I use a Superiority Dice to use "Harder they Fall"
DM: Ok! He's automatically tripped!
 

I thought of two examples illustrating why not having combat maneuvers as class powers is a good thing:

"My Fighter Trip power gets me a free attack on anything I trip - therefore - I try to trip as often as possible"

-versus-

"The Orc Chieftain is standing on the table smashing the heads of my party members with his warhammer – therefore - I think I'll forgo my usual attack and try and trip him to get him off that table and make him fall down."
Give a character a single "schtick" and this will tend to happen, I agree. Give them a limited number of effects that they can rely upon, though, and my experience suggests they will look at the in-game situation and pick what they want to do. In our 4E game, one fighter can reliably push enemies (with a shield - the Tide of Iron power), but they generally only do so if it would be useful to do so because other (reliable) options are available.

If done well, I think the system in the L&L could do the same: give a range of good options, only one of which can be done at a time. Thus giving the fighter's player interesting decisions to make concerning what to use.
 

I thought of two examples illustrating why not having combat maneuvers as class powers is a good thing:

"My Fighter Trip power gets me a free attack on anything I trip - therefore - I try to trip as often as possible"

-versus-

"The Orc Chieftain is standing on the table smashing the heads of my party members with his warhammer – therefore - I think I'll forgo my usual attack and try and trip him to get him off that table and make him fall down."


Now if 'Fighter Trip' can only be used once been rests I guess that's fine, but my verisimilitude alarm is going off a little.
If its tucked away in an optional fighter path I can live with it.

I think if any trained combatant has learned how to trip someone in combat, they would attempt it a lot more often than someone that hasn't.
 

Give a character a single "schtick" and this will tend to happen, I agree. Give them a limited number of effects that they can rely upon, though, and my experience suggests they will look at the in-game situation and pick what they want to do. In our 4E game, one fighter can reliably push enemies (with a shield - the Tide of Iron power), but they generally only do so if it would be useful to do so because other (reliable) options are available.

I remember Tide of Iron. Not a bad Fighter power at all. However I remember thinking many times, "This enemy should not be getting automatically pushed. This power wouldn't work in this situation. I wish I could just say no it doesn't work without my buddy thinking I'm crapping on his cool power."

If done well, I think the system in the L&L could do the same: give a range of good options, only one of which can be done at a time. Thus giving the fighter's player interesting decisions to make concerning what to use.

I hope the range of options is infinite under the blanket of 'Improvise'. That said I can live with some Fighters being particularly good at some maneuvers - but not so good it becomes a brainless option used over and over again.

I think if any trained combatant has learned how to trip someone in combat, they would attempt it a lot more often than someone that hasn't.
I agree. But I've had enough dragons and 20' tall giants effortlessly tripped by human-sized PCs to last me a lifetime.
 

I remember Tide of Iron. Not a bad Fighter power at all. However I remember thinking many times, "This enemy should not be getting automatically pushed. This power wouldn't work in this situation. I wish I could just say no it doesn't work without my buddy thinking I'm crapping on his cool power."
It's not automatic - you have to hit. In this case, it's part of what "hit" means - you succeed in pushing the opponent.
 

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