Less magical item dependance; an Idea - Testing the waters

[jester47]

I like this discussion too.

You don't need certain magic items to go against monsters of a similar challenge level, but without them those monsters will be a bigger challenge. To 10th level characters with magic items a CR 10 monster isn't much of a challenge. To the same character without magic items the same monster is a much bigger challenge, maybe CR 11 or 12. 10th level characters with magic items can defeat a CR 14 monster if they use good tactics and have some luck, but without magic items it would be a slaughter.

Right, a monster of equivalent CR is supposed to suck up 1/4 of the resources of four PCs. That is a big challenge. Magic items balance this out. I agree. I think my entire point is that making magic items one use things or limiting thier role in the game is necessaryu to make it interesting.

I'm not familar with "transhuman philosophy", but I know a lot about mythology and folklore. I can't think of a single folkstory or myth about a character that carries a dozen different magical devices on him, using them like tools. In most stories, characters either have one or two items that serves a single purpose - one-shot items essentially - or they have items that are integral parts of their character. Hence the desire for a D&D game in which each character has at most one or two magic items, without seriously skewing game balance.

I agree with you on this. Most legendary and mythological heroes do not depend on items, and if they do, they don't keep them. But even when they have an item that is integral to the character, that item often takes a back seat to solving problems.

Tell me, in D&D how would you create a character like Achilles, who is (in D&D terms) extremely difficult to injure due to an early supernatural occurrence? Simply building him with feats and classes isn't sufficient, as any character could be built in that way, and achilles' gift is unique. You could give him some homegrown "uber-feat" but that skews balance seriously and arbitrarily. Giving him the ability as a innate gift, a "virtual magic item", models the ability extremely well.

Well considering that Achillies was a half-nereid he probably already gets a few extra abilities. Depending on who you ask, his mother (not human and thus having access to the divine) either covered him in Ambrosia, or dipped him in the river styx. Either of these was to make him divine. So I would say that Achillies had as a gift from his mother a divine rank of 0, at level 1. This would give achillies a DR of 35/+4 at all levels 1-20. Paris overcomes this with the help of apollo. This is not a home grown solution. He is actually barly divine in the myth, and the divine rank of 0 works. I would say that the rest of the heroes of theilliad were epic level, and that by that time Achillies was himself epic level.


Aaron.

 

[jester47]

Anyways, I think it is a credit to the system that we are all able to come up with the necessary solutions for our games to a percieved problem that does not really exist.

There is a better way already allowed for. If you don't have magic items get better, then they must be stolen, destroyed, or lost. If you dont do this then you get the problem of the item's power being static and the characters power being cumulative. The easy solution is the characters ability to improve the items that they find. This is not unheard of and works just fine to solve the problem since the rules accomodate such actions. In fact I ask everyone to look at the DMG p.246 bottom right hand corner. It is the last rule in the DMG and expressly states that you can upgrade magic items for this very reason. It allows you to keep magic items rare and special without hindering the characters.

Aaron.

 

[mmadsen]

It would be similiar to FFG's Path series which had schools where you could spend XP to gain the abilities of the school. In short, I would create a number of Gifts, if you will, that would allow the characters to do extraordinary things as though they had the cool gear (though I would make them far more interesting than that) but that would be a part of them. You spend the XP, you get a Gift of Power that lets you do Something Cool. Think of them like Feats, but really powerful ones that cost XP.

Why not just use Feats then? They already have a clear cost (that's very, very close to an xp cost), and inordinately powerful powers can become Feat Chains culminating in a more-than-one-Feat power.

 

[Belen]

I agree and disagree with you. I do not like an overabundance of items in my game either, yet I allow them to comission items the players feel they need. At the moment, they can have a number of items that cost equal to their wealth by level chart and no one magic item more!

However, if I was to do it the other way, then I would turn items into supernatural abilities (that way anti-magic field is not nullfied.) You could grant a feat/ ability as a story award or treasure. Just turn exisiting items into permanent potions or the like.

Dave

 

[Angcuru]

I feel that it is rediculous for characters to NEED the magical weapons and armor to go toe-to-toe with the baddies in D&D...but I also think that magical item rarity should depend on the setting. Of course, in a high-magic setting like the Forgotten Realms, it is specifially stated that magic is EVERYWHERE, so perhaps the commonplaceness of magic items fits in there. But in a low-magic setting, you need something to balance the lack of magic items with the bad-assness of the obstacles.

Perhaps for low-magic settings, you should allow for greater amounts of feats per level and easier access to epic-type(but toned down where appropriate) feats such as E.Prowess, Penetrate Damage Reduction, Gain (Insert Stat), etc. The way I would run a low-magic setting with the normal monsters(which usually require magic items to take down) would be that characters would gain a feat every level(and another ever 3), and then any bonus feats. The useful feats in the Epic-Level Handbook would be modded to allow for characters to be able to take them without NEEDING to be epic.
I.E.:
LVL
1- 2 Feats
2- Feat
3- 2 Feats
4- Feat
5- Feat
6- 2 Feats
7- Feat
8- Feat
9- 2 Feat
10- Feat
etc.
In a normal-magic setting, characters have 4 feats by level 10. In a low-magic setting, characters have 14 feats. By level 20 in a normal-magic setting, characters have 7 feats, in a low-magic setting, characters have 27 feats.
While the amount of feats skyrockets, the characters don't have that +4 longsword of wounding and +3 Full Plate of Fortification, etc. that normal-setting characters do.

Increased Availability of Feats: if a character meets the prerequisites of a epic feat, she can take it even if not epic. HOWEVER, feats such as Energy Resistance or Epic Life Span(excepting Great {Instert Attribute}), which have no prerequisistes, cannot be taken until Epic Level is actually reached (With more feats, characters will be able to gain access to these feats earlier, so they can get the so-called super-powers if they choose their feats right.) For stats like great fortitude, their lesser non-epic version must be taken as a prerequisite.

Additional Feats:

Thick Skin / Skilled Defense: [General]
Prerequisites: Con 15 / Dex 15.
Benefit: Your skin has been toughened beyond normal, making it dificult to penetrate. / You have spent significant time practicing how to parry, dodge, duck, and generally avoid blows that would hit someone with lesser skill. Gain +1 Armor Bonus(thick skin) / +1 Dodge Bonus(skilled defense).
Special: Can be gained multiple times. The effects stack.

Lesser Damage Reduction: [General]
Prerequisites: Con 18
Benefit: You gain damage reduction 1/-.
Special: Stacks with any existing Damage reduction. Can be gained multiple times.

Prowess: [General]
Benefit: Gain a +1 bonus to all attacks.
Special: May be gained multiple times, it's effects stack.

Pierce Damage Reduction [General]
Prerequisites: +5 Base attack Bonus.
Benefit: Your attacks are made is if with an additional +1 bonus for determining if Damage Reduction is nullified.
Special: Can be taken multiple times(once for every +5 BaB i.e. can be taken only once with BaB 7, but three times at BaB 16). Its effects stack.

etc. etc. etc.

So, in effect, characters become able to take on foes which they would normally require magical equipment to face. While a character could drop all of his feats into Prowess and become incredibly accurate with his weapons, he leaves himself vulnerable by not being able to penetrate a foe's damage reduction without a magical weapon, and is quite easy to hit due to his lack of AC-increasing feats. A good mix is required, but I think this system would work rather well, with a few tweaks, of course.

 

[Saeviomagy]

What is the problem?

Magic items don't seem 'rare' enough.

What is the obvious solution?

Make magic items far less common

What are the problems with this?

a) Monsters become more difficult to beat, and the CR system ceases working as it should

b) Fighters really, really get left out, because there are simply so many things they flat-out cannot do

What are the solutions to these problems?

a) Raise the CR's OR Simply adapt - tougher fights of lower CR's can be easily balanced with less fights per day. In reality, it doesn't matter much as long as everyone in the party still levels at the same rate.

b) Make magic less powerful. If a spell replicates something which usually can only be achieved with a magical item (flight, invisibility, immunities, teleportation, scrying, planar travel etc), then bump it up one or more levels, or associate some major cost with it (prime one would be XP) to discourage it's use somewhat. If bumping up the level of a spell pushes it to level 10, then so be it - it no longer exists.

Alternately, make some non-magical items which either negate those particular advantages, or give them to individuals. Adamantine weapons are a prime example - all the benefits of a magical weapon, without the magic. Bows with significantly longer ranges reduce the power of flight. A herb which allows you to see the unseen negates invisibility. and so on.

 

[Angcuru]

In low-magic settings, Clerics pop out as the most powerful characters, no doubt about it.

Can't damage this thingy? No problem. HOLY WEAPON + TRUE STRIKE=dead thingy. Hordes of undead? Not problem. TURN UNDEAD. Buddy dying from sword gash to groin? No problem. CURE SERIOUS WOUNDS. Big Hulking Evil Dude in Thick-as-Hell Adamantine High Plate? No Problem. FLAME STRIKE. Lots and lots of goblins? That's what the trusty mace is for. The single greatest aspect of the cleric is that one he uses up his spells, he's still almost as good as a fighter when it comes to combat!

As well, the mage becomes the fighter's best friend. If the fighter is nice to the mage, maybe eventually he'll make the fighter that nice Magical Sword he's been aching for. I.E. To keep it a low-magic setting, REMOVE ITEM CREATION FEATS.