Blog (A5E) Let’s Look At Exploration in Level Up

One of our primary goals with Level Up is to expand and fully flesh out the game’s exploration pillar. There are various ways we’re doing that: we’re giving all characters exploration knacks themed to their character class, we’re making a few tweaks here and there to spells and abilities which interact with that pillar, and we’re writing new journey rules.

Let’s Look At Exploration — Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)

One of our primary goals with Level Up is to expand and fully flesh out the game’s exploration pillar.

www.levelup5e.com

 

[tetrasodium]

5e does address a lot of this. Fly in 5e is short duration (10 minutes), requires a very high level cast to get your party flying....and mostly importantly, is extremely dangerous to use because of the concentration.

If you take damage (or deal with a high wind or something) and fail that concentration check....you fall and take falling damage.

Teleport Circle is very intentionally limited, so that DMs have a lot of control on where this spell can get you, or whether such circles even exist in their world at all.

Now revivify I completely agree with you, it was the first houserule in 5e I made to remove that spell. Raise Dead is bad enough, but a spell that can just pop you back up like death never happened (and its already hard enough to kill 5e characters), yeah no thanks. Would love a levelup take on that one

That's a good point about teleport circle & part of why it always confuses me when people complain about it. Ib my eberron games teleport is extremely expensive

Spoiler: -OFFICIALLY- to an eyepopping degree

Those prices are per person...
-Rising pg11

but at one point my players spent like 3 months of weekly sessions doing things for the dragonmarked houses hoping to get them to install a teleport circle room & setup an orien enclave in their little company town investment. I'm not sure that the players ever used the circle in that campaign, but in a later campaign they were thrilled they could tag along with some muckity mucks about to use it to let them teleport out of western droaam to somewhere more developed with a nearby lightning rail station that lets them get where hey need to get.

LU uses steam trains instead of lightning rails, but someone in that world might say something like "we live in a world where fabulous trains rush on roads of iron & mages craft teleportation gates." Even saying that doesn't mean those gates & trains are near where you are, that they go near where you want, or that they are a service you can afford

 

[Caliburn101]

5e does address a lot of this. Fly in 5e is short duration (10 minutes), requires a very high level cast to get your party flying....and mostly importantly, is extremely dangerous to use because of the concentration.

If you take damage (or deal with a high wind or something) and fail that concentration check....you fall and take falling damage.

Teleport Circle is very intentionally limited, so that DMs have a lot of control on where this spell can get you, or whether such circles even exist in their world at all.

Now revivify I completely agree with you, it was the first houserule in 5e I made to remove that spell. Raise Dead is bad enough, but a spell that can just pop you back up like death never happened (and its already hard enough to kill 5e characters), yeah no thanks. Would love a levelup take on that one

All true, except that exploration challenges have an entire category of challenges which are point features - ruined bridges, chasms, unclimable precipises, sinking sand, trackless forest... these are all still trivilised by the ability to fly for 1 minute, never mind 10. Also, feather fall makes flying quite safe.

 

[tetrasodium]

"food spoils in extra-dimensional spaces, so that bag of holding can carry treasure, but it can’t carry supplies." how plausible would it be to apply this mechanic to other items like for example potions (of healing) allowing a gm to give them out or make them readily available more often without needing to worry if bob has 42^6 potions of cure wounds in his bag by making them into a self correcting problem if bob tries it?

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

"food spoils in extra-dimensional spaces, so that bag of holding can carry treasure, but it can’t carry supplies." how plausible would it be to apply this mechanic to other items like for example potions (of healing) allowing a gm to give them out or make them readily available more often without needing to worry if bob has 42^6 potions of cure wounds in his bag by making them into a self correcting problem if bob tries it?

''the potency of magic items is negatively impacted by being exposed to extra-dimensional spaces:

• Magic items do not regain any charges while in extra-dimensional space.
• Potions have a 50% chance of being spoiled after a week: when drinking a potion stored at least one week in an extra-dimensional storing space, you must automatically roll on the ''potion miscibility'' table (DMG 140).
• Spell Scrolls have a 50% chance of being warped after a month: when using a scroll stored at least one month in an extra-dimensional storing space, you must automatically roll on the ''scroll mishaps'' table (DMG 140).''

 

[dave2008]

All true, except that exploration challenges have an entire category of challenges which are point features - ruined bridges, chasms, unclimable precipises, sinking sand, trackless forest... these are all still trivilised by the ability to fly for 1 minute, never mind 10. Also, feather fall makes flying quite safe.

And spending a 6th level slot to get your party over a chasm seems like reasonable expense for an exploration challenge to me. I don't see the issue. Also, it not like every group has a character that can cast fly.

 

[tetrasodium]

''the potency of magic items is negatively impacted by being exposed to extra-dimensional spaces:

• Magic items do not regain any charges while in extra-dimensional space.
• Potions have a 50% chance of being spoiled after a week: when drinking a potion stored at least one week in an extra-dimensional storing space, you must automatically roll on the ''potion miscibility'' table (DMG 140).
• Spell Scrolls have a 50% chance of being warped after a month: when using a scroll stored at least one month in an extra-dimensional storing space, you must automatically roll on the ''scroll mishaps'' table (DMG 140).''

That would probably work for having them in a bag of holding or something,
But I think supplies are limited outside of extradimensiional storage by being bulky itemsor something while potions are effectively weightless given default carry capacity so not much need to put them there. .

was thinking more like could we extend the expire mechanic to poions. Your angle about the exreadimensional space being actively hostile to supplies is probably closer to the bread grows mold after a while type of thing I was assuming though.

Maybe make potions need a special bulky container with limited capacity
that keeps them potent and gives a bonus or they have a minus if not in one for a period would be a way to extend the mechanic without a bunch of roll a save for your equipment type stuff if that's the case .

 

[Caliburn101]

And spending a 6th level slot to get your party over a chasm seems like reasonable expense for an exploration challenge to me. I don't see the issue. Also, it not like every group has a character that can cast fly.

If you are going to critique, then do understand the point being made. It is quite clear I was tackling higher level play and it's 'magic solves everything' when it comes to exploration issue. You MUST go interpanar or have quite ridiculous challenges crowbarred in at high level to make exploration even vaguely relevant because just using a spell slot is NOT a 'challenge'... at all... The game is all about superheroes at such levels and choice of exploration challenge suffers because of the massive proliferation of magic at high level. You may not see the issue, but the vast majority of games on lets say roll d20 end around 12th level. Various published d20 games especially recently have level 10 or 12 end points for their systems and the explanation is always the same - they want the game world and what is in it to remain challenging to the players. On your last point - I have been playing and DM'ing D&D for over 40 years and I am yet to see a high level game not include flying. In fact I cannot remember a single game without it, ever. So on the sheer weight of games I have played and seen this norm appear in, I can categorically say you are wrong. If there was ever was a group without the ability to fly at high level I never encountered it, even in games I wasn't in but talked about with others. The spell is far from the only way a group can fly, and flying is almost ubiquitous at the usual level range and beyond.

 

[dave2008]

If you are going to critique, then do understand the point being made. It is quite clear I was tackling higher level play and it's 'magic solves everything' when it comes to exploration issue.

There was nothing in the text I quoted that would indicate you were exclusively talking about high level play. You only mentioned "fly" with comes on at 5th level. If there was context in previous posted, I didn't see them (as in I didn't read any of your previous post). I try not to jump to conclusions, maybe you shouldn't either.

You MUST go interpanar or have quite ridiculous challenges crowbarred in at high level to make exploration even vaguely relevant because just using a spell slot is NOT a 'challenge'... at all...

You misunderstood. I wasn't try to say using a spell slot was a challenge. It was, IMO, an acceptable expense to circumnavigate a challenge. We have one magic using character in our group. If I can get him to waste a 6th level spell to avoid an environmental hazard, that is a win IMO.

The game is all about superheroes at such levels and choice of exploration challenge suffers because of the massive proliferation of magic at high level. You may not see the issue, but the vast majority of games on lets say roll d20 end around 12th level. Various published d20 games especially recently have level 10 or 12 end points for their systems and the explanation is always the same - they want the game world and what is in it to remain challenging to the players. On your last point - I have been playing and DM'ing D&D for over 40 years and I am yet to see a high level game not include flying. In fact I cannot remember a single game without it, ever. So on the sheer weight of games I have played and seen this norm appear in, I can categorically say you are wrong.If there was ever was a group without the ability to fly at high level I never encountered it, even in games I wasn't in but talked about with others. The spell is far from the only way a group can fly, and flying is almost ubiquitous at the usual level range and beyond.

First, I never said high level games don't include flying. I said not every group has a character that can fly (or a lot of magic for that matter). It is not the same thing.

2nd, your experience and mine (35+/- years) amounts to approximately 0 when compared to the 50 million or so people playing D&D now. We don't really know what other people are doing in their games.

3rd, I would suggest the success of TOR (including its recent near record breaking $2million+ kickstarter) and AiME speak to there being some significant support for low/no magic D&D (or related) games. And they are not the only low-magic settings available for 5e.

 

[tetrasodium]

If you are going to critique, then do understand the point being made. It is quite clear I was tackling higher level play and it's 'magic solves everything' when it comes to exploration issue. You MUST go interpanar or have quite ridiculous challenges crowbarred in at high level to make exploration even vaguely relevant because just using a spell slot is NOT a 'challenge'... at all... The game is all about superheroes at such levels and choice of exploration challenge suffers because of the massive proliferation of magic at high level. You may not see the issue, but the vast majority of games on lets say roll d20 end around 12th level. Various published d20 games especially recently have level 10 or 12 end points for their systems and the explanation is always the same - they want the game world and what is in it to remain challenging to the players. On your last point - I have been playing and DM'ing D&D for over 40 years and I am yet to see a high level game not include flying. In fact I cannot remember a single game without it, ever. So on the sheer weight of games I have played and seen this norm appear in, I can categorically say you are wrong. If there was ever was a group without the ability to fly at high level I never encountered it, even in games I wasn't in but talked about with others. The spell is far from the only way a group can fly, and flying is almost ubiquitous at the usual level range and beyond.

I don't agree about players being "superheroes", 5e being tuned to that scale is a big hassle that takes a lot of houserules to wrench back. It's easy to narrate things on those scales even with more mundane power levels just as we all saw in many batman movies about an utterly mundane human who uses science & wealth alongside planning to take on much more powerful foes

Spoiler: Like this completely powerless human about to die

Batman is scary because it's never a question of if he could win against another superhero/supervillian, it's a matter of if he's motivated & willing to. Superman is a boring gary sue bound by a bunch of thinly veiled excuses that keep him from going Brandon Breyer.

Even super hero games tend to have a better range of power scaling than 5e's goku to saitama scale. A player is rarely going to complain if you add some houserules, magic items, or even a temporary enchantment that cranks them up to 11 but the same can not be said of dialing them back even a fraction of a notch & 5e makes it even harder with the sheer number of over the top superhero scaled systems. This is an area a5e can dramatically improve in

 

[Caliburn101]

There was nothing in the text I quoted that would indicate you were exclusively talking about high level play. You only mentioned "fly" with comes on at 5th level. If there was context in previous posted, I didn't see them (as in I didn't read any of your previous post). I try not to jump to conclusions, maybe you shouldn't either.

Then you took a small part of the conversation and took it out of context. I would encourage you to read the thread as a whole as reiterating the full context in every response in a thread is not something people do. If you dip into only a fraction of a discussion you can mistake the point of the conversation.

You misunderstood. I wasn't try to say using a spell slot was a challenge. It was, IMO, an acceptable expense to circumnavigate a challenge. We have one magic using character in our group. If I can get him to waste a 6th level spell to avoid an environmental hazard, that is a win IMO.

When I put challenges in a game they are not meant to be momentary bumps in the road so easily solved they don't require any real thought or chance of failure - just a spell slot expended and the ppresence of the challenge is irrelevant 5 seconds after its appearance. To my mind that does not serve the purpose of an rpg session - which is part of the whole point. It becomes increasingly difficult to make meaningful challenges in the exploration pillar as level increases and magic can solve so very much with the simple expenditure of a spell slot. Using this pillar of the game at high level just to drain resources before the real fun begins I think misses the point entirely. Exploration should be a fun challenge.

First, I never said high level games don't include flying. I said not every group has a character that can fly (or a lot of magic for that matter). It is not the same thing.

2nd, your experience and mine (35+/- years) amounts to approximately 0 when compared to the 50 million or so people playing D&D now. We don't really know what other people are doing in their games.

The statistical probability of the decades and many, many games involved makes it far more likely that my point is sound , regardless of your trying to dismiss the 'sample size' and irrelevant. It becomes increasingly improbable that I would not have encountered a game without flight as a staple ability in a mid-high level party the more games I have played - that is merely the maths of the thing and isn't really subject to opinion. I didn't take Flight out of those games (nor could I always do so as I didn't run them all), yet there it was, game after game. Are you trying to claim that is merely a coincidence?

3rd, I would suggest the success of TOR (including its recent near record breaking $2million+ kickstarter) and AiME speak to there being some significant support for low/no magic D&D (or related) games. And they are not the only low-magic settings available for 5e.

Of course there is significant support for low magic games, for the very same reason D&D games do not often run to very high level - the fact there is so much magic! People LIKE to be challenged by things they can relate to, due to the very real impact of verisimilitude on their enjoyment of the game. The more magic does everything, the less suspension of disbelief plays it's part in that enjoyment, and the harder it is for a DM to create challenges in the Exploration sphere most of all. Magic does not have nearly so much impact on the social or combat spheres due to the rules scaling up challenges in tried and tested ways, especially in combat. But there is no 'Exploration Manual' like the Monster Manual with a ready set of challenge-rated options. I really do look forwards to see what A5E can come up with to fill the void left by having high level magic trivialise so much that is fun about exploration.

If you really do think that isn't a problem, then perhaps you might ask yourself why A5E is specifically tackling it?

I beleive it is one of the biggest challanges they have set themselves and I very much hope they ace it!