Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
It does make sense. But do they say, anywhere in the game, that their CR system assumes non-optimized players, and requires work (sometimes a lot of work) to make it challenging for more skilled players?
D&D 5E Let’s Read Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
Yes, the DMG spends a lot of time on how to customize challenges to a party.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Not an answer to my question. There's a difference between "every party is different, so take that into account", and "Our threat rating system assumes PCs who aren't really using the game to it's fullest, so you will need to do some work to make it challenging".
Faolyn
(she/her)
Since the book doesn't even say that 6-8 is anything more than a guideline as to how much a party can handle (at a rough estimate), not how many encounters they should face, they probably didn't feel a need.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
If it isn't clear to you as written, Mearls and Crawford have made it clear over the years.
Leatherhead
Possibly a Idiot.
CR would be more useful if you split up the numbers into Offence Rating and Defense Rating. But even then its only a measure of DPR.
To get a better read on now deadly a monster is, you would need to take into account its Mobility, Range, Action Economy, and Special Win Conditions.
For Speed there are really only three numbers you need to consider:
Anything below 30 speed without a ranged attack and/or a movement ability is a chump. A DM is going to have to compensate for slow monsters like these.
40' speed is the bare minimum I would recommend for a melee-only monster. Humanoids can be slower, but most humanoids can also wield ranged weapons or spells to compensate.
With 60' or more of speed, a monster can render short range attacks useless, which happens to be the bulk of ranged attacks. Mounted combatants can easily reach this speed, which is why horses are so dangerous in combat.
The rest of Speed concerns special movement types. Does the creature have any of them? If so, they are more deadly. In most cases, when given an appropriate environment, there isn't a functional difference between Climbing, Swimming, or Flying, they all add 3d into the combat.
Teleportation is good, but not as good as magical transportation would imply. While you can use it to break out of a trap or grapple, use it as a Disengage, or reposition yourself regardless of interposing obstacles, you are still limited by your other movement types. You can't teleport into the air and expect to survive without a supporting fly speed, for example. And often Teleportation is limited by x number of uses or some other factor (such as only into shadows).
Burrowing, on the other hand, is on a whole other level. It can do the 3D combat, and provide up to total cover for the creature to attack from below. Handily the most dangerous form of movement.
For range, there are 5 basic categories:
15' or less (basically Melee), 20-60 (short), Up to 80' (Mid), Up to 100' (long), 120'+ (Extreme).
Extreme Ranged combat basically turns anything anything Mid Range or lower into pincushions.
Action Economy is "How many Actions can this monster negate, or create." Because CR is calculated by Tank-and-Spank metrics, where the combatants just trade DPR with each other, and the Action Economy functions as a Force Multiplier for DPR. You could go as far as saying that Actions are true currency of combat and DPR is just a tax to play with a given CR.
Special win conditions are things like Stat Damage, or knocking targets Unconscious. Anything that lets them bypass the HP mechanic entirely. These effects completely throw the DPR out the window, and often just kill the PCs outright over the course of a single battle.
To get a better read on now deadly a monster is, you would need to take into account its Mobility, Range, Action Economy, and Special Win Conditions.
For Speed there are really only three numbers you need to consider:
Anything below 30 speed without a ranged attack and/or a movement ability is a chump. A DM is going to have to compensate for slow monsters like these.
40' speed is the bare minimum I would recommend for a melee-only monster. Humanoids can be slower, but most humanoids can also wield ranged weapons or spells to compensate.
With 60' or more of speed, a monster can render short range attacks useless, which happens to be the bulk of ranged attacks. Mounted combatants can easily reach this speed, which is why horses are so dangerous in combat.
The rest of Speed concerns special movement types. Does the creature have any of them? If so, they are more deadly. In most cases, when given an appropriate environment, there isn't a functional difference between Climbing, Swimming, or Flying, they all add 3d into the combat.
Teleportation is good, but not as good as magical transportation would imply. While you can use it to break out of a trap or grapple, use it as a Disengage, or reposition yourself regardless of interposing obstacles, you are still limited by your other movement types. You can't teleport into the air and expect to survive without a supporting fly speed, for example. And often Teleportation is limited by x number of uses or some other factor (such as only into shadows).
Burrowing, on the other hand, is on a whole other level. It can do the 3D combat, and provide up to total cover for the creature to attack from below. Handily the most dangerous form of movement.
For range, there are 5 basic categories:
15' or less (basically Melee), 20-60 (short), Up to 80' (Mid), Up to 100' (long), 120'+ (Extreme).
Extreme Ranged combat basically turns anything anything Mid Range or lower into pincushions.
Action Economy is "How many Actions can this monster negate, or create." Because CR is calculated by Tank-and-Spank metrics, where the combatants just trade DPR with each other, and the Action Economy functions as a Force Multiplier for DPR. You could go as far as saying that Actions are true currency of combat and DPR is just a tax to play with a given CR.
Special win conditions are things like Stat Damage, or knocking targets Unconscious. Anything that lets them bypass the HP mechanic entirely. These effects completely throw the DPR out the window, and often just kill the PCs outright over the course of a single battle.
Leatherhead
Possibly a Idiot.
Retriever (MToF)
Sadly, the Retriever is not a type of dog-person for D&D (We have three birds, two cats, and more fish than necessary, but still no dog people!). Instead it is an evil spider-construct that spends its time in the Abyss, capturing Demons on behalf of the Drow. Who in turn use said Demons as either ritual fodder or cannon fodder.
If that seems incredibly niche, don’t worry, the Retrievers can also be used to kidnap people or steal items too. In fact, they are able to track down a target from anywhere on the same plane of existence, and even Plane Shift to the plane and back with their quarry as necessary.
At CR 14, it can seem daunting to use the Retriever, but keep in mind that its win condition is simply knocking out a target, then Plane Shifting away with them in tow. Killing isn’t strictly necessary (unless they have to, in which case they don’t give a second thought about doing so). In fact, you could have a totally oblivious spider-construct that doesn’t care about anything other than the quarry. In which case the “Fight” plays out more like the ending from Terminator: The Retriever simply ignores any damage it receives while trying to take out the target. This creates a sort of puzzle combat where the goal is still to destroy the Retriever, and hopefully the PCs start using the lack of direct pressure to set up and use environmental hazards
In a more direct combat, the Retriever hits every note you could want from them. A multiattack featuring beams with ranged Damage or Paralysis. Superior movement capabilities (including multiple abilities that let them transport their target). The resilience of a higher tier construct. Access to Web for some additional ranged control. And even Blindsight to counter Darkness tricks. The minor levels of added complexity on otherwise stock powers are exactly where they need to be.
The Retriever was not significantly changed for this book.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Again, comments on social media and interviews. Not something even every experienced player would necessarily know about.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
Yeah, because most aren't even optimizing, let alone paying attention to social media. That why it works to design around a minimum level rather than an "optimized" level of play.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I never said they shouldn't do it. I said they should be clear in the books that they are doing it, because not every player is new to the game or unwilling to/disinterested in playing a deeper game.
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