D&D 5E Let’s Read Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse.

[Paul Farquhar]

How do you calculate it? I come to offensive CR 5 and defensive CR 1/2, not counting the disadvantage on attacking them.

The "Blurred Movement" ability is the thing that matters. But RAW says it has no effect on defensive CR, and who are we to argue with rules?

Base defensive CR is 1/8, which is increased by one pip for having more than 2 AC over the line (note that it's one for every two AC, round down, I suspect this is why you are getting 1/2 rather than 1/4). Common sense says Blurred Movement is worth at least +1 pip, and therefore final CR is at least 2, but rules say no.

But this creature is a good example of why CR can never work. If you have the right abilities, e.g. Toll the Dead, Reckless Attack, spells that don't target DEX, then their low hp makes them pushovers. They are even vulnerable to Sleep! But if all you have are whiffy melee attacks these things will punch well above their weight.

 

[Sulicius]

The "Blurred Movement" ability is the thing that matters. But RAW says it has no effect on defensive CR, and who are we to argue with rules?

Base defensive CR is 1/8, which is increased by one pip for having more than 2 AC over the line (note that it's one for every two AC, round down, I suspect this is why you are getting 1/2 rather than 1/4). Common sense says Blurred Movement is worth at least +1 pip, and therefore final CR is at least 2, but rules say no.

But this creature is a good example of why CR can never work. If you have the right abilities, e.g. Toll the Dead, Reckless Attack, spells that don't target DEX, then their low hp makes them pushovers. They are even vulnerable to Sleep! But if all you have are whiffy melee attacks these things will punch well above their weight.

That there are solutions to fighting them isn’t factoring into how a DM can just pop them in and out of full cover a huge distance away to toss daggers, and easily take down any enemy.

Blurred movement’s effect is somewhere between Stench and Superior Invisibility in its effect, so +1 AC is the least we should count it as.

You’re right, calculating CR is a meaningless endeavor. WotC has intentionally made dragons punch above their CR, as if they are the monster equivalent of the fireball spell. And then we get to the higher levels, where either we are all playing D&D wrong or they don’t pose a real threat to high level characters.

I wanna see a tier 4 quickling

 

[Paul Farquhar]

DM can just pop them in and out of full cover a huge distance away to toss daggers, and easily take down any enemy

This one depends on terrain. Again, something that simply can't be factored into CR*. But in that situation, I would ready a spell for when they popped out of cover. Thrown daggers have shorter range than most spells. Or use Sleep - don't need to be able to see the target for that, and it automatically takes out 1+1 per two levels upcast with no save. As fey, you might expect them to be immune. But they aint.

Of course, the really sadistic way to deal with quicklings is Spike Growth.

But there is no reason why you can't change the CR yourself, just like every other monster stat.


*Also see: gelatinous cube, which should be CR 0 any time the party can stand off and shoot it full of arrows.

 

[dave2008]

The "Blurred Movement" ability is the thing that matters. But RAW says it has no effect on defensive CR, and who are we to argue with rules?

Actually that is not true. There is no guide for "Blurred Movement" with respect to CR because it came out after the DMG. The can't anticipate every new feature in the DMG monster making guidelines. However, that doesn't mean it has no effect on CR. I would imagine WotC factored it in and we can look to see if there are similar features in the DMG that we can use to figure our a good adjustment.

Base defensive CR is 1/8, which is increased by one pip for having more than 2 AC over the line (note that it's one for every two AC, round down, I suspect this is why you are getting 1/2 rather than 1/4). Common sense says Blurred Movement is worth at least +1 pip, and therefore final CR is at least 2, but rules say no.

Now, with that in mind I get
Defensive CR: 2 (1/8 from HP & AC 21 = 16 + 1 (evasion/avoidance) + 4 (blurred movement / nimble escape)
Offensive CR 5: (DPR 24 = 3 & +2 from +8 attach bonus)
Total CR: 3

So it seems a bit off to me!

EDIT: even without blurred movement the defensive CR would be 1/2 which would make the total CR 2.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Actually that is not true. There is no guide for "Blurred Movement" with respect to CR because it came out after the DMG. The can't anticipate every new feature in the DMG monster making guidelines. However, that doesn't mean it has no effect on CR. I would imagine WotC factored it in and we can look to see if there are similar features in the DMG that we can use to figure our a good adjustment.

Now, with that in mind I get
Defensive CR: 2 (1/8 from HP & AC 21 = 16 + 1 (evasion/avoidance) + 4 (blurred movement / nimble escape)
Offensive CR 5: (DPR 24 = 3 & +2 from +8 attach bonus)
Total CR: 3

So it seems a bit off to me!

EDIT: even without blurred movement the defensive CR would be 1/2 which would make the total CR 2.

That rather overestimates the benefit of blurred movement. It's pretty easy to counter with spells or anything that gives advantage on attacks. They don't have spell resistance or any status immunities, and they can't fly.

Defensive CR is definitely 1/4. Base 1/8, +1 from AC. They would need to be AC 17 for +2 from AC.

As for throwing daggers, how many can they carry? But kit them out with bows, put them outside, and they are basically invulnerable, at the same CR.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That there are solutions to fighting them isn’t factoring into how a DM can just pop them in and out of full cover a huge distance away to toss daggers, and easily take down any enemy.

Blurred movement’s effect is somewhere between Stench and Superior Invisibility in its effect, so +1 AC is the least we should count it as.

You’re right, calculating CR is a meaningless endeavor. WotC has intentionally made dragons punch above their CR, as if they are the monster equivalent of the fireball spell. And then we get to the higher levels, where either we are all playing D&D wrong or they don’t pose a real threat to high level characters.

I wanna see a tier 4 quickling

Have you seen later seasons of the Flash?

 

[Sulicius]

That rather overestimates the benefit of blurred movement. It's pretty easy to counter with spells or anything that gives advantage on attacks. They don't have spell resistance or any status immunities, and they can't fly.

Defensive CR is definitely 1/4. Base 1/8, +1 from AC. They would need to be AC 17 for +2 from AC.

As for throwing daggers, how many can they carry? But kit them out with bows, put them outside, and they are basically invulnerable, at the same CR.

At the appropriate level, you don't need many of those daggers to take down a PC .
But for real, a normal lvl 2 party would not have sufficient spells to cast before they are taken down. I am guessing.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

At the appropriate level

But what do you mean by "appropriate level"? A single quickling is appropriate level for a 1st level party, 28 quicklings are an appropriate level for a level 20 party.

In either case, I don't see the party breaking a sweat. A single quickling is stopped by a 1st level wizard with a sleep spell, 28 quicklings are cone of colded (suck on those con saves you speedy wobbos).

 

[Sulicius]

But what do you mean by "appropriate level"? A single quickling is appropriate level for a 1st level party, 28 quicklings are an appropriate level for a level 20 party.

In either case, I don't see the party breaking a sweat. A single quickling is stopped by a 1st level wizard with a sleep spell, 28 quicklings are cone of colded (suck on those con saves you speedy wobbos).

A first level wizard is dead before they can cast it on average and only defeats a quickling if they have sleep prepared and if they know that is probably the weakness of the Quickling. So yeah, against an optimized metagamer, they are easy pickings if they win initiative.
I am not an optimizer, so I don't do the math, but one quickling should be able to take out a wizard in a single turn with +8 to hit and dealing 8 damage per attack. Let's optimize and metagame with a quickling:

1. They get the drop on the wizard because of their incredible stealth, surprising the wizard and killing them in one turn, or two turns, as they win initiative and take one turn after another.
2. They don't get the drop, but still win the initiative, probably killing the wizard in 1 turn.
3. They don't get the drop, but still win initiative, not killing the wizard in 1 turn (the wizard has mage armor and casts shield or something), and the quickling runs 60 ft back behind some cover after attacking, guaranteeing that the wizard has no vision of him. They are tiny fey, they can probably get full cover from a four-leaf clover. The wizard has no spell slots, and they die the next turn.
4. They don't get the drop, and fail initiative, meaning the wizard somehow snook up on this creature, and the wizard makes the quickling sleep, after which they attack the quickling to kill it. If they don't kill it, see 3.

Please consider the amount of people who are not on this forum, who don't prepare sleep and who just want to cast burning hands and ice knife, who will just be obliterated. White room optimizations never help with determining CR. If the players are supposed to be tactical masterminds, why wouldn't the quicklings be similar?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

A first level wizard is dead before they can cast it on average and only defeats a quickling if they have sleep prepared and if they know that is probably the weakness of the Quickling.

Even if the quickling wins initiative (not unlikely), if the wizard has mage armor and shield the quickling will have to burn all it's attacks to take her out, then the cleric hits the quickling with toll the dead whilst reviving the wizard with a healing word. The quickling can only take one more hit. It still loses.

Please consider the amount of people who are not on this forum, who don't prepare sleep and who just want to cast burning hands and ice knife, who will just be obliterated.

If players are less skilled it's the DM's job to adjust the difficulty of encounters accordingly. No CR system can do it for them.