Let the Players Manage themselves Part 2

[Gorrstagg]

Resolution?

I have a rules question. When I have a number of effects that occur at the start of the turn, which order do they resolve. For instance, if I have a monster that has regeneration 5, and is taking ongoing fire 5, which goes first?

-- Looking-for-the-Right-Way Chris

I'm going to be a little cheeky here. Which one do you want to go first?

I'm only half kidding. The rules are quiet on an order of operations mainly because it's not a good idea to force one where it doesn't belong. The best way to deal with issues like these is to allow the person controlling the creature to decide the order of the effects, much as they do for saving throws at the end of their turn. This lets the player make choices for his or her own character and allows you, as the DM, to make choices that serve the narrative and fun, rather than following techie and unnecessary rules.

--------------------------------------------------

This was in there as a rules answer. But it is wrong. And I would of sent them an email to fix it but in their infinite wisdom they didn't include a link so we could send Stephen an email, letting him know of his rather blatant error.

What error is that you say?

Please open your Players Handbooks to page 268. Under the section titled Tracking your turn.

It states, and I quote.

THE START OF YOUR TURN
✦ Ongoing Damage: If you’re suffering ongoing damage (page 278), you take the damage now.
✦ Regeneration: If you have regeneration (page 293), you regain hit points now.
✦ Other Effects: Deal with any other effects that occur at the start of your turn.
✦ End Effects: Some effects end automatically at the start of your turn.
✦ No Actions: You can’t take any actions at the start of your turn.

So.. to the persons valid question. The answer is, they take the ongoing damage first. In order as that's the order this is put in. And then the regeneration kicks in. (Assuming they were at 1 hp or above, where as 0 or lower and regeneration turns off.)

I just don't understand how articles like these get put up when all they had to do literally was run a search on the word regeneration. (I'm assuming the writer had access to the rpgnow pdf's.)

I'm not trying to bag on these guys, but the answers are often right there, and when a rep from the company is riffing on a great article sure its easy to make a mistake. But if they've been playing D&D 4E for a while now, they should know this. As regeneration comes up in quite a few places, from fighters, to items.

So could someone please shoot them an email, and let them know of their error. (I would but I'm tired of trying to navigate a website that looks like some kids in a romper room of early html design put together. Seriously.. unify the damn thing already and make it look professional. As well as being the professionals, they should be answering simple rules questions correctly to boot. Though again, I recognize the good vibes from the article in the first place, and this could be an easy mistake. But don't they have a QA department for rules answers that should vet all rules answers first before publication?)

Sorry, off to work now.. was in a hurry.

 

[Syrsuro]

Where does it say that the effects occur in that order, as opposed to that merely being a list of the various things which all happen at the beginning of the turn?

Your interpretation (RAI) is that there is an implied order there, but that order is not RAW.

Carl

 

[inati]

Agreed, there is no order in that list.

 

[Gloombunny]

If that list were meant to be step-by-step instructions of when to do each thing, then you'd be allowed to take actions during the first four steps.

 

[Jhulae]

Looks like a pretty definite order to me.

 

[essenbee]

It is not an ordered list, just a set of bullet points. If it were ordered, they would have used a numbered list.

 

[Nytmare]

Looks like a pretty definite order to me.

It's a description of the "start of your turn" not an order that they happen in. Otherwise on your turn you would have to, in the following order:

• Take a standard action
• Take a move action
• Take a minor action
• Take any free actions
• Take the actions in any order you want
• Subsitute any of the actions you already took
• Allow other combatants to take their free actions
• Trigger immediate actions
• Trigger opportunity attacks

And then there would be a direct contradiction on the very same page, where the rules then tell you that other combatants should take their opportunity actions, then their immediate actions, and then their free actions.

There is a numbered list, walking you through the step by step processes of an attack on page 269, as opposed to the bulleted lists that, in every other instance in the PHB, describe something instead of giving you a marching order.

 

[Enaloindir]

• Take a standard action
• Take a move action
• Take a minor action
• Take any free actions
• Take the actions in any order you want
• Subsitute any of the actions you already took
• Allow other combatants to take their free actions
• Trigger immediate actions
• Trigger opportunity attacks

I think this list suggests that the bullet items represent some kind of sequential order: otherwise, the "Take the actions in any order you want" wouldn't be necessary.
I also interpreted the list "At the start of your turn" as sequential list (my MtG background kicking in ), but I can see interpretations going both ways.

- Enaloindir

 

[Nytmare]

I think this list suggests that the bullet items represent some kind of sequential order: otherwise, the "Take the actions in any order you want" wouldn't be necessary.

But then the very first thing on the list would be:

1. Do the appropriate combination of these actions in any order.

not

1. Do this
2. Then do this
3. Then do this
4. Then do this
5. Ignore rules 1 through 4
6. Also ignore rule 5

 

[Jhulae]

No, sorry, Nytmare. Your example where you 'quote' what you can do really misinterprets the box on page 269. They're *not* all bulleted the way you have them in your post.

I'm going to stick with the fact that the start of the turn box comes right after stating that the 'Start of the Turn' section is *not* optional for the PC (while the whole "Actions on your turn" section *is* as it states in the opening paragraph).

The order seems pretty implicit, given the fact there's also no bullet point stating you can take those actions in any order you like as there is in the Actions on Your Turn.