D&D 5E Let us "fix" Expertise!

ECMO3

Hero
I think the problem with this analogy is that you feel like drivers are constantly making checks to drive from A to B. The typical driver probably isn't making checks day to day, rather they make the check when something unexpected happens, like when another driver pulls out in front of them unexpectedly.
I disagree with that. It is probably a DC3 to drive down a residential street without hitting anything.

So for a young adult "proficient" in driving it is an automatic success, a guy who is 90 with catarax and a 5 dexterity is going to occasionally hit something even though he probably has expertise. IRL the first time I put my son behind the wheel at 15 years old he crashed into my front porch.
 

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ECMO3

Hero
It means the rogue always rolls at least a 23 at that time for sneaking... That is way overkill in most cases.
Well considering he can't hide unless he is fully obscured I do not think it is overkill.

If you are talking about using stealth for something other than hiding, a 23 does not mean automatic success, it means automatic success at hard things and I don't think this is out of line considering you are talking about someone who is world class at that. Something impossible is still impossible so I don't get the problem.
 

Stalker0

Legend
That is true for straight DCs, but it is NOT true for contested checks.

For example, Stealth is a contested check and higher CR monsters have a higher proficiency bonus, genrally a higher wisdom and therefore a higher perception. This means stealth checks as a general rule are going to be more difficult against higher level monsters. Same is true for grapple checks, or insight, deception or really anything that is contested.

Now if you are using a stealth cehck to see if the character can walk across an empty library where the floor is covered in dust without leaving any footprints; sure that should be the same DC at 1st level as it is at 20th level.
I again must disagree. Many monsters do not get proficiency bonuses to many skills. Athletics is a common one, I had a grapple barb that could grab all sorts of things because they didn’t have proficiency, perception is the same.

now you are correct thst when a monster does have the skill, the modifier is higher than at low levels, but taken as a whole a lot of difficulties really don’t change much all said and done
 

cbwjm

Legend
I disagree with that. It is probably a DC3 to drive down a residential street without hitting anything.

So for a young adult "proficient" in driving it is an automatic success, a guy who is 90 with catarax and a 5 dexterity is going to occasionally hit something even though he probably has expertise. IRL the first time I put my son behind the wheel at 15 years old he crashed into my front porch.
Sure, people learning to drive (and not yet proficient) or people who are now aged and impaired might be rolling checks more often, but even then, when they get rolling (I mean get underway in the car, not "rolling") under conditions where they aren't under any stress, they probably aren't rolling a skill check.

As for expertise, that old 90 year old probably doesn't have it if he is a standard driver. If he was some professional race car or stunt car driver then yeah, he might have expertise.
 

Stalker0

Legend
I disagree with that. It is probably a DC3 to drive down a residential street without hitting anything.

So for a young adult "proficient" in driving it is an automatic success, a guy who is 90 with catarax and a 5 dexterity is going to occasionally hit something even though he probably has expertise. IRL the first time I put my son behind the wheel at 15 years old he crashed into my front porch.
You are forgetting one of the most important rules of skill checks, as important as it as often invisible.

a skill check only occurs when a dm wishes it to occur.

the dc of your daily commute is not a 0, 3, 5, or 20…it’s non existent, because the story doesn’t care about your daily commute, so there’s no check you just do it.

if I ask a blacksmith to make a sword…they just make a sword….because they are a blacksmith and that’s what they do.

trying to put dcs to mundane nigh automatic things is a fallacy, because we just assume they happen automatically every time until the dm wants to shake it up.
 


Nope, can't agree. From where I'm standing, proficiency and expertise bonuses on skill checks are too small. Way, way too small.

Imagine a person who's never driven a car, never taken driver's ed, no training at all. Take that person, plunk them behind the wheel, show them the pedals to make it go, and send them down the interstate. What are the chances that they reach their destination without a wreck? If you put that chance at 50%, you're more optimistic than I am.

Now, take a typical driver--not a race car driver or a long-haul trucker, just Joe Average Commuter--and send them down the interstate. What are the chances that that person makes it safely? If you say 95%, you are asserting that the typical commuter (two trips per day, 5 days a week) wrecks their car twice a month! I'd hate to see insurance premiums on the D&D highway system.

But think about what this means in terms of the d20 scale: If the average trained driver has a 95% chance to make a check that the average untrained driver fails 50% of the time, that implies a proficiency bonus of +9. That's just proficiency, not even expertise (expertise would be a professional driver of some kind).

Proficiency bonuses in D&D are laughably tiny. And yet people keep complaining and wanting them to be even smaller! Bounded accuracy is designed for combat, where the attack roll is just one component of a much larger system. It makes no sense for skills.
You're right. But it's really difficult to fix this without some kind of a bell curve. Increasing Bonuses just leads to high DCs. (Although the difference between being trained and untrained could be higher than that between a high and low ability score - proficiency was a flat +5 in 4e which worked better).

If I was designing from scratch I'd probably use the advantage mechanic for proficiency and Boons and Banes (+/- 1d6) from Shadow of a Demon Lord for Advantage/Disadvantage.

Or have some kind of a metacurrency that can be used for skills.
 

In 3.5 I really liked the take 10 and take 20 rules.
Used correctly they simulated many situations well:

DC 25? No problem.

Expert:
I just work at normal speed (20 rounds per action). I am no hero, I don't have to rush things. My +5 bonus is good enough.

Hero:
I am really good at things. Maybe I am a rogue and have reliable talent. I just take 10 and my +15 bonus will do the job.

Stressful situation:
Ok, lets roll. Maybe I fail, maybe not.

DC 15?

Expert:
No problem. No stress. I take 10.

Hero:
Easy. I can't fail except when I am under stress and roll a 1.


You can't transfer it 1 on 1 to 5e. But a mixture of auto success and passive checks can work.
But my feeling is that this could use an overhaul in 5.5.
 

pming

Legend
Hiya!

Just like to re-iterate what @Stalker0 said above: any "normal, every day task" doesn't even require a roll. Hell, even some "stressful" situations might not require a roll (e.g. a friendly game of darts at the tavern...whomever is better can be assumed to win most of the time; no need for the Players and DM to roll dozens of d20's for every throw, or even once per game).

So "needing high/low DC's" isn't all that necessary as most characters will auto-succeed most of the time...they fail if they need to make a check and roll poorly. That's when the PC's with bonuses make a difference.

The trick isn't to "increase DC's" or to increase/decrease a PC's/NPC's bonus/penalty. The trick is to not let them escalate their Ability Scores and Skills and all those extra "Options" in the first place.

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

Horwath

Hero
there is no problem with expertise, however there is still problem with low d20 rolls on things you should be good at.
Rogues reliable talent should be global benefit with proficiency and expertise, but at a reduced effect:

with proficiency you treat d20 skill roll below 5 as 5,
with expertise you treat d20 skill roll below 8 as 8,
reliable talent and proficiency treats every roll below 10 as 10.
reliable talent and expertise treats every roll below 12 as 12.

this way you prevent failing at easy tasks, but still keeps max roll equally out of(or in) reach as currently.
 

Xeviat

Community Supporter
Supporter
A "Fix" I suggested way back when was to have double proficiency replace ability score. This way, expertise can be used for being goof in a skill you're not naturally talented in.

For O5E, advantage is a fine trade instead of double prof. It doesn't raise the ceiling.

Level Up is handling things differently, in a way that doesn't exactly stack, so it is reined in. I'm not sure if it's been previewed yet.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Pretty much dead on what I was thinking. :) If Expertise always gave Advantage...even if you normally would be 'incapable of having it' (due to opposition, situation, whatever...), you get it. That would be one of those things where the Player could feel cool and say "Oh? What's that? NONE of you get Advantage right now for that? Oooo....geeeeeezzzz...man. That sucks! I guess I'll have to do it... WITH Advantage. Step aside and let the expert do it...". ;) It's nice to be able to brag unconditionally every now and then in a game. :)
Yeah, and then the player proceeds to roll a '6' and a '3', thus still failing. LOL.

To me... the only way to get the real feeling of "the expert gets to brag" is for the DM to not require a check at all from someone proficient in the check in question. If there's a History question to be answered, all the PCs without proficiency have to make INT (History) checks to remember the answer... whereas if one of the PCs is proficient in History then the DM just gives the answer without even needing to roll. That way there's no chance for the PC to screw it up by even rolling with Advantage.
 

Dausuul

Legend
Yeah, and then the player proceeds to roll a '6' and a '3', thus still failing. LOL.

To me... the only way to get the real feeling of "the expert gets to brag" is for the DM to not require a check at all from someone proficient in the check in question. If there's a History question to be answered, all the PCs without proficiency have to make INT (History) checks to remember the answer... whereas if one of the PCs is proficient in History then the DM just gives the answer without even needing to roll. That way there's no chance for the PC to screw it up by even rolling with Advantage.
This is pretty much where I've ended up, too.

3E had something like this with the idea of "trained" vs. "untrained" tasks--some things, if you aren't proficient*, you don't even get to try. No matter how lucky and dextrous you are, you can't pick locks if you don't know how. But there was nothing that went the other way; tasks where the untrained person could roll, and the trained person just succeeded with no questions asked. The latter is much more fun IMO. If you've invested in the skill, you get to step up and confidently say, "I got this." If you haven't, you can still try and hope to get lucky.

The problem with D&D skills is that they lay two whole pillars of the game--exploration and social interaction--on top of a mechanic (the attack roll) that was designed to be one small element of combat. Combat power scales along many different axes: Attack bonus, hit points, number of attacks, damage modifier, special abilities. A combatant's prowess is made up of all these factors multiplied together. So each individual factor must be kept within careful limits. With the attack roll, this takes the form of bounded accuracy.

But when you take the attack roll and make it stand on its own, while keeping those tight limits in place, what you get is a situation where the distinctions between characters are practically invisible. And so the designers put in hacks like expertise, and Reliable Talent, and various ways to get advantage on skill checks, so that the really skilled characters could stand out at least a little bit. But those hacks weren't available to most characters for a long time, and even now you have to pay an exorbitant price (half of a feat) to give your wizard a modest bonus on Arcana checks.

*In 3E, substitute "having skill ranks" for "proficient."
 

A concept I used with in my Star Wars homebrew was something called "Affinity". The goal was to make characters better at a skill, but still keep the top value range close, so you even values that challenge experts can be tried for non-experts. Also, I liked to make "easy" routine tasks notably simpler, without affecting the ceiling as much. Overall it should lead to more reliability for a very skilled (affine) character.

So my take back then was you could have Affinity or High Affinity. Affinity meant if you rolled below 10, you could reroll. High AFfinity meant if you rolled below 15, you could reroll.

In hindsight I think I would change some things about this. My current idea is to set the threshold at rolling below 5 (or rolling below 10), but also saying that any roll below 5 (or 10) would be treated as 5 (or 10). So you get a smaller possible spread of results. Routine tasks can potentially become auto-success, but even difficult challenges can be attempted by non-experts.
One could theoretically also try to o without the reroll mechanic, and just say you can't roll below 5 (or 10). That would mean a skilled and an affine character woudl find really difficult (anything that requires more than a natural 10) tasks equally difficult, but routine stuff could be considerably easier for the affine character.
 

Dausuul

Legend
One could theoretically also try to o without the reroll mechanic, and just say you can't roll below 5 (or 10). That would mean a skilled and an affine character woudl find really difficult (anything that requires more than a natural 10) tasks equally difficult, but routine stuff could be considerably easier for the affine character.
This actually exists in 5E. It's called Reliable Talent, an 11th-level rogue ability: "Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10."

Unfortunately, a feature that doesn't come online until 11th level won't show up at all in most campaigns, and even when the campaign does reach that level, it's only open to rogues. It's a shame, because (having played a high-level rogue) it transforms the experience of playing a skill monkey. Suddenly you have a bunch of stuff that you can just do, instead of rolling the dice every time to not fall on your face. You feel like an expert instead of an unreliable klutz.
 

pming

Legend
Yeah, and then the player proceeds to roll a '6' and a '3', thus still failing. LOL.

To me... the only way to get the real feeling of "the expert gets to brag" is for the DM to not require a check at all from someone proficient in the check in question. If there's a History question to be answered, all the PCs without proficiency have to make INT (History) checks to remember the answer... whereas if one of the PCs is proficient in History then the DM just gives the answer without even needing to roll. That way there's no chance for the PC to screw it up by even rolling with Advantage.
Since we are moving into the realm of "How do you handle Skill checks?"... there have already been some good threads on various modifications or interpretations for them.

For me, if you "have" the skill, even if another PC rolls higher, your PC "does it better. In a nutshell, if you don't have the skill and succeed...you did it. Barely or not impressively, or "it will pass" (call it 50% to 65%). A PC that HAS the skill and succeeds, does it AT LEAST "it will pass" even if they fail by a couple points (usually I cap that at 5; so a roll of 7 with a DC 12 will still have the skilled PC "pass", but only "minimally"). If he makes it...it's easily better than the non-skilled PC. For truly amazing successes, with the Skill, well, that's how you get, "Masterwork", "Exquisite" and "Legendary" items/successes.

So yeah. "Who has History?", the PC that does is the one who knows the basics and some specifics. Obscure history reference? Only the PC with the actual Skill will be able to accurately recall the info if he succeeds; the others are going to get "commoner info"....misplaced dates, messed up names, wrong city names, incorrect familial or fealty ties, etc...but still generally "correct"...to some degree.

Yes, this means in my game success/failure of a roll for something "unusual/obscure/difficult" doesn't tend towards the absolute side of things; everyone can get some things wrong....even an expert.

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

ECMO3

Hero
I again must disagree. Many monsters do not get proficiency bonuses to many skills. Athletics is a common one, I had a grapple barb that could grab all sorts of things because they didn’t have proficiency, perception is the same.
High CR monsters often have high statistics too. A Pit Fiend for example has four abilities that are 22 or higher (and the other two are an 18 and a 14).

Your 20 strength expert 15th level grappler (+15) is still going to fail a grapple contest against a Pit Fiend quite often, 30% of the time to be exact. That of course assumes you make your save against being frightened, fail that save and your chance is actually below 50%.
 
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This severely nerfs the Rogue class. The difference between expertise and proficiency in tier 2 goes from +3 to +1.
This is really a big part of the issue.

If the Rogue class didn't need expertise, then it wouldn't really be needed at all.

Personally I'd prefer to rejig the class somewhat so that they get reliable talent earlier, and give them something else at higher levels. (Perhaps give them reliable talent in two skills at level 1 rather than all). This actually probably serves the purpose better as it makes the Rogue reliable at the things they should be good at (which Expertise has never done very well).
 

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