Let's ban Teleport!

[Gez]

Actually, Gez, you shot yourself in the foot with this example.

If teleportation magic existed in Middle-Earth, Sauron would indeed have been able to transport the Nine into the middle of the Shire. No problem. Sauron/Gorthaur has been alive for an indeterminate amount of time. You're telling me he wouldn't have strolled through Eriador at that point? Please. Sending the Nazgul to the Shire would be child's play for him, assuming those power levels.

The Shire is the Shire. I'm pretty sure we can safely say that Sauron never went to the Shire. Maybe he went to the place that would, later, become the Shire. But with all the changes wrought by time and people, his knowledge of the place is no longer relevant. Or, it becomes actually false enough to ensure he sends his nazguls to a "similar destination" or to a teleport misshap. Kinda embarassing.

And the power level is of no importance. It's in Arcana Unearthed that teleportation needs a caster power check. In D&D, it's the same probabilities, regardless of wether you're a level 1 wizard with a staff of teleportation, or a level 567 archmage. (Only the Wayfarer Guide PrC modify these probabilities, and -- mind you -- Sauron doesn't strike me as being a Wayfarer Guide. Can you imagine? "Mordor Tours, 24/7 teleportation services. I'm Sauron, at your service. Please consult our catalog of exotic destinations for prices and special offers."

Beside, if there's teleportation magic, there's teleportation anti-magic. From the blatant teleport block, to the insidious teleport redirect. Sauron isn't all powerful, he got his arse ended to him in the last war, and in the meantime, the Wizards and other magicians, elves or humans, could have weaved a lot of teleport disruptor to prevent intrusion from that meddlesome discorporeated enemy.

One thing I've noticed throughout this thread is the idea that teleportation magic is somehow not a big deal because DMs can design elaborate end runs around teleportation. That seems to miss the entire point, namely that the existence or availability of teleportation magic forces DMs to have to develop gaming styles that are far removed from traditional heroic fantasy.

It may be true, but it's, by far, not the only offender there. You would have to ban fireballs and other flashy evocations as well, for a start.

And no, TP and giant eagle mounts just aren't the same thing. Trust me, I've dealt with this in my 21st-level epic campaign. TP is a perfect, seamless in-out tactical device. That's far different from mounts, even good ones. Gandalf atop Gwaihir would encounter massive resistance from Sauron before he could get anywhere near Orodruin. Gandalf with a TP spell would be in and out in a total of 12 seconds, hardly worth worrying about.

Assuming Sauron was stupid enough to not protect his den of unabashed naughtiness from magical intrusion. Somehow, I doesn't think so. Assuming, as well, that Gandalf had seen what Orodruin looks like as of today. Volcanoes in activity tend to change their conformation. Especially when an evil overlord is rebuilding his hellish fortress nearby.

 

[Thanee]

In D&D, ...

Beside, if there's teleportation magic, there's teleportation anti-magic. From the blatant teleport block, to the insidious teleport redirect.

Not in (official) D&D.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

LotR doesn't work at all with D&D style magic, as it is just totally different to what they have there.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

Yep, that's one of those "problems". Teleport is a highly campaign dominating force. It completely alters how a campaign will work. It actually restricts any campaign towards a certain style, since it is so highly superior to anything else, there is simply no reason not to do it all the time.

Do you know what I think...?

Resurrection is a highly campaign dominating force. It completely alters how a campaign will work. It actually restricts any campaign towards a certain style, since it is so highly superior to anything else, there is simply no reason not to do it all the time.

What is the main thing that prevents people in the world casting Raise Dead, Resurrection or True Resurrection? The gp cost. Well, that usually means that since you cannot always afford to die, you're going to be more careful not to die, otherwise you would care less.

Why don't you just add a gp cost to the long-ranged teleportation spells? They are even at the same level as the resurrection, so you can use them as guidelines:

5th level - Teleport, 5000gp (as Raise Dead)

7th level - Greater Teleport, 10000gp (as Resurrection)

9th level - Teleportation Circle, 25000gp (as True Resurrection)

Those are huge costs indeed, something that basically turns the spell into an option that is probably going to be used once or twice in an entire campaign, and only if strictly necessary.

 

[Gez]

Not in (official) D&D.

(Official) D&D focuses on spells that are of interest for player characters during gaming sessions.

teleport block and teleport redirect are in Monte Cook's Book of Eldritch Might, and there's also dimensional lock in (at least) Magic of Faerûn. (Official) D&D just wings a lot of things, when it's not combat-related, can't be cast in combat, or won't be cast by players during their downtime. Spells like plant growth and its reverse, for example, would never have been printed if they hadn't a tactical use.

There's no rules either for pregnancy and for statting out toddlers, infants, and children. Does that mean that everyone in a campaign setting behaves like NPC in a CRPG, living chaste lives, and without ever any birth?

No, it just means it's unlikely to matter to players.

Teleportation comes with it's free "DM can thwart it out for no clear reasons if so they wish" card, namely the bit about "strong physical or magical energies" that "may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible".

Orodruin, being a mystical volcano of Eeeevol, strike me as an area which qualifies fully for both "strong magical energies" and "strong physical energies".

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I can think of an issue that hasn't really been touched on here...

Higher level Dnd is far more lethal than the lower levels. When combat goes against a party, teleport is an often useful method of preventing a TPK and doesn't even involve a DM 'Deus Ex' intervention to save them. Quite often the speed and abilities of many opponents would make them nigh on unescapable without these magics. Of course, I'm sure lots of people (BADD?)would see this as a bonus.

Take away the teleport and the game would become a lot more lethal. I'd say a side effect is that the DM should be more conservative with encounter design. Either that or some sort of device to even things in favour of the players - possibly action dice or WFRP style fate points...

I think teleport does not remove the need for journeys altogether. It may remove the return leg of a journey, but without some method of viewing the target location, it really isn't going to get anyone there much faster.

{rambling}

Having said that, I can see how those magics, and many other features of the DnD system, can upset a campaign and makes certain feels of game impossible... Vancian magic, hit points, healing, evocations, scrying et al just don't fit for some game types. Depending on the feel of the game I was shooting for, I'd far rather use a whole different system. I think Henry put the idea in my head - A few minor tweaks and D20 modern or Spycraft could make great no/very low magic systems for a fantasy game...

{/rambling}

 

[Dark Dragon]

Sometimes I'm considering to use the old AD&D Teleport...It is a good escape spell to get home, but it is very risky to go to a barely explored place. And that's why wizards live in towers: they teleport onto the roof to avoid ending up in solid rock...

One campaign I'm in has no wizard and no cleric with the travel domain. Only a druid/shifter of caster level 12 is capable of fast travelling (he can cast transport via plants). But he is a quite curious guy and loves to travel as an eagle or large copper dragon and see the country. When the party needs to travel fast, the druid polymorphs his friends into small birds by casting Feathers (MotW), followed by Wind at Back (MoF?). The birds take place on the dragon who flies towards the desired location. We're having lots of fun with that way of travelling. If the DM has preapred an encounter, it is not totally wasted by a simple teleport.

Another campaign is the pure opposite of the one above. Its PCs are two wizards (one has teleport as a signature spell) and a cleric/divine disciple and a druid/divine disciple with the travel domain. The only one who can't teleport is the paladin. The group travels from their HQ near Zazesspur to the western Starspire Mountains to Waterdeep to Mossstone to the western Spiderhaunt Woods to the Wealdath and back to the HQ within a few hours to do shopping and ask some friends for advise or help.

Although I don't have a big problem with that, it stretches a bit the feeling of fantasy. On the other hand, it speeds up the game a bit. But still, it is too easy to use and can break an adventure into a fight-retreat-to-rest-fight-retreat-to-rest campaign (RttToEE went like this), or, if the group has been sent to a more dangerous far world, kill the whole story with Greater Teleport: Got there, fight some monsters, retreat home (which is a quite secure place)...rinse, repeat. No fun.

A more dangerous teleport version might help.

 

[jmucchiello]

P.S. Reduce Person doesn't work on horses.

True, but as a Large creature it just counts as two Medium creatures. Teleport 3.5 allows you tp you plus 1/3 levels other Medium creatures. 2 small creatures counts as only one medium. Great for parties with 2 gnomes/halflings.

 

[kolikeos]

ban teleport?! zain ba eyen!

 

[Thanee]

True, but as a Large creature it just counts as two Medium creatures. Teleport 3.5 allows you tp you plus 1/3 levels other Medium creatures. 2 small creatures counts as only one medium. Great for parties with 2 gnomes/halflings.

OFF TOPIC: They're playing 3.0.

Bye
Thanee