Let's ban Teleport!

[Thotas]

This is one I'm very much undecided on. I share all the misgivings Thanee has expressed ... but I'm just too familiar with enough teleportation magic in myth and fiction that I like to want to just bag it.

Coincidentally, at the moment, I'm DMing an adventure that currently has the newly 9th level adventurers tromping through the underdark -- with a true talent for taking all the least important avenues. It's taking forever, they've run into all the critters on the encounter charts several times and I'm tempted to have the next "dead body" roll on said chart just happen to have a teleport scroll for the wizard just so we can move things along.

Now, when I actually create my homebrew instead of just the long purchased adventure I'm in now, I like a variation on what Steel Wind talks about, and not just for Teleport and such; actually having the world itself divided into High, Medium and Low magic areas. Especially if those boundaries are subject to change. For example, humans settling an area pulls it to Low magic, but Elves settling in an area tends to make it High magic. The "I don't dislike you, but stay out of my neighborhood!" attitude natural to the elf in that case encourages the racial segregation that I prefer in my fantasy worlds. (Is there a published village where the local blacksmith is NOT a dwarf?)

 

[Talon5]

Read somewhere in here- one of the posts (sorry to lazy to try and find it again), where writer basically left me feeling that Mr Wiz gets to 9th and claims his two spells- TP and (some other spell). The GM jumps up and says- "nope not working here, ruin the campaign."

Not sure that is what Thanee was saying- think she was implying that it was something she would set up like Coyote6 has done to me. Its implied from about 5th lvl that TPing in the UnderDark is a bad thing- or can't be done. Its a feel he is going for a campaign style, and because Alran has access to it and I want to be able to use it I told him <paraphrasing here> "if it hurts the campaign then I won't do it."

BTW- you all should ask Coyote6 about fore shadowing. In '90s he fore shadowed a villian we didn't hear about for at least five more years, so he has a fair idea of where he wants a campaign to go and what he wants with it. With the ruling on TPing- that is part of his fore shadowing talents.

Thanee I am not so sure your LOTR point is being read to clearly. Good luck on getting that through.

 

[Gez]

Huh... except that there ARE giant allied eagles in LOTR.

Congratulations, you just found out why I choose to parrot Thanee's original post with giant eagles instead of teleportation.

What if we bring Teleportation spells into the LotR epic? Is anything changed in the story? Well, yes. The heroes die. No "zzzip, splosh, world saved." Sauron, being the impatient he is, teleports his Nine to the Shire, while good ol' Gandy-geezer is still doing his researchs in the libraries, and here it is.
Unless you look at TP's limits. Sauron probably never went to the Shire, he had more interesting places to go. His scrying abilities seem somewhat limited -- he still needs to use palantiri to spy on those foolish enough to use them. He can only sense the Ring when it is worn. So, no teleportation of the bad guys. (Beside, Gandalf could have left some wards against teleportation.)

So, who can teleport? Not the hobbits, they're not wizards. Not Aragorn, who, no matter which D&D class you slap on him (ranger, paladin, fighter, aristocrat...) is not going to teleport. Not Legolas, nor Boromir, nor Gimli. Just Gandalf. Who is shy of using big blatant magic -- something about being detected by other magic-users. Imagine how much it would have sucked: Gandalf teleports him and his crew besides Mount Doom, meanwhile Sauron tells Ringwraith #1 "I sense a disturbance in the force. Let's teleport with the gang to the Lava Pit of Doom." Then you can insert a "Ah, Gandalf, my old enemy. We meet again." dialogue if you want, and a bloody battle, which the heroes are not going to win.

Anyway, the location of the Magical Trash Can, conveniently placed in the heart of the enemy fortress, makes it an unlikely place to be left open to wanton teleportation. Even if Gandalf wanted to use his newfound mad teleportation skillz to go to a lavatan trip in Mount Doom, he wouldn't be able to; because someone put a big "No door-to-door salesmen, Jehovah's witness proselitizer, surveyors, or unleashed dogs allowed" magical sign on his property.

Another thing that makes the destination a place in which the heroes won't teleport anyway, even if they were in a D&D campaign: XP. None of them have enough levels to dare entering the Evil Vile Villain's Stronghold of Icky Blackness and Unabated Evil (tm).

Gandalf is an exception, maybe, but then again, Gandalf is clearly a NPC that tags along the PC group. The DM use him as a plot device, to convey informations to the PCs ("dudes, you need to do this and that" "we can pass through the Moria, but be warned it's an effin dungeon crawl, there's traps and goblins aplenty, unstable bridges incredibly thin and without railings arching over bottomless abysses, and a few fiery demons from the dawn of time. Not a dainty place, I tell you.") Sure, he can do the occasional bit of Deus Ex Machina if needed, but then, to avoid making it too easy for the party, he'll disappear for some time.

Otherwise, the DM would commit one of the cardinal sins of game mastering: giving the spotlight to a pet NPC rather than the actual heroes.

So, the heroes embark on a lot of adventures, gain lots of levels, and then enter the heart of the villain's fortress, and launch the proton torpedo into the core generator, then they leave in a hurry because everything explodes.

And this, my friends, is where teleportation would actually, finally, enter play. The story is over. The fight is won. The Evil Dude Boss is no longer a threat. But the clichéd cataclysmic autodestruction of the secret base is. Teleportation back to the Shire's festhall, and go spent all their reward on ale and meal (I don't think you can find whores in the Shire, and anyway, the hobbits' carnal urges seem more directed toward meat than toward flesh).

So, no, teleportation don't hamper a Lord of the Rings-style campaign. Because, just like with the giant eagles, there's lots of factors that makes it easier said than done, and not necessarily a good idea.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Actually, Gez, you shot yourself in the foot with this example.

If teleportation magic existed in Middle-Earth, Sauron would indeed have been able to transport the Nine into the middle of the Shire. No problem. Sauron/Gorthaur has been alive for an indeterminate amount of time. You're telling me he wouldn't have strolled through Eriador at that point? Please. Sending the Nazgul to the Shire would be child's play for him, assuming those power levels.

One thing I've noticed throughout this thread is the idea that teleportation magic is somehow not a big deal because DMs can design elaborate end runs around teleportation. That seems to miss the entire point, namely that the existence or availability of teleportation magic forces DMs to have to develop gaming styles that are far removed from traditional heroic fantasy.

And no, TP and giant eagle mounts just aren't the same thing. Trust me, I've dealt with this in my 21st-level epic campaign. TP is a perfect, seamless in-out tactical device. That's far different from mounts, even good ones. Gandalf atop Gwaihir would encounter massive resistance from Sauron before he could get anywhere near Orodruin. Gandalf with a TP spell would be in and out in a total of 12 seconds, hardly worth worrying about.

 

[Thanee]

No, but if you're talking about banning 9th level spells like Gate and Teleport Circle, I thought that's what you were discussing, specifically future planning of removal of spells from the lists, for fear of what it'll do.

Again, I have no fear or even any difficulties to challenge high level parties with all sorts of abilities (including Teleport). This is not, what this thread is about!

Well, I'm not sure...but I suppose it depends on your players, really, both in how they'll react and how they already act. You've mentioned that you think it ruins the feel of certain campaigns, and I don't disagree...

Then don't try to think any further. You are already there. There isn't more to it.

...but depending on your personal outlook, it could be the 'I don't like that I can't threaten my players using scary overland travel' or 'I don't like my players to bypass my dungeon/setup/etc.'

Both wrong. Tho, the latter does hit it somewhat. But it's more like plenty setups simply don't make sense with Teleport around.

Transport via Plants is another teleport spell, albeit with the limitation of moving through similar vegetation. But it's pretty substantial as well. Going from a tree to a similar tree 5,000 miles away is not mean feat.

Yep, that (and Tree Stride) should be considered, too. Thank you!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

My problem wasn't that players would use Buff-Scry-Teleport; it was that I couldn't think of any good reason why my BBEG's wouldn't. Why would the BBEG wait for the PC's to get equipped & ready? Better to hide, wait for them to go home, rest, split up around the city as they run errands -- and then send in commando teams to take them out one by one.

Powerful PCs have powerful enemies, you know.

Of course, the PCs were aware this might happen, so they took all kinds of counter-measures. There were items & spells to prevent scrying, throw off divinations, block Teleports, etc. It was an arms race - and both sides committed a lot of resources to it. It was fun -- the first time.

Yep, that's one of those "problems". Teleport is a highly campaign dominating force. It completely alters how a campaign will work. It actually restricts any campaign towards a certain style, since it is so highly superior to anything else, there is simply no reason not to do it all the time.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

What?! I just gained the supernatural ability of Dimension Door!!! (Hey it's only 1/day, chill).

Dimension Door is no problem at all.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

You know, if you, as a DM, feel that you can keep your campaign interesting for the players when they're spending the vast majority of their lives traveling from one adventure to another, then go for it.

It's not like without Teleport everyone has to go by foot (like some overgeneralizing persons on this thread seem to read it - that's not you ).

The players know what they like. If they don't like traveling, the DM should allow the spells for bypassing lengthy journeys. It's only polite.

Well, there is a very simple way... "2 months later..."

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

...Mr Wiz gets to 9th and claims his two spells- TP and (some other spell). The GM jumps up and says- "nope not working here, ruin the campaign."

Nope, what I am saying is, that for some campaigns it should be clear from the beginning, that there simply is no such magic.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. Reduce Person doesn't work on horses.

 

[Thanee]

Congratulations, you just found out why I choose to parrot Thanee's original post with giant eagles instead of teleportation.

I'd congratulate you, too, but you still havn't seen the point, so this has to wait, I guess.

What if we bring Teleportation spells into the LotR epic? Is anything changed in the story? Well, yes. The heroes die. No "zzzip, splosh, world saved."

No, actually that would just be what some of you seem to propose, that Teleport is fine, but it actually is not, as you pointed out.

So you basically say, that Teleport is fine, but the PCs should be screwed over everytime they use it and it doesn't suit you. Now THAT's railroading!

Bye
Thanee