Let's ban Teleport!

[Thanee]

Actually, if your problem is in creating an atmosphere like LOTR, ...

It isn't. LotR was just an example. Nothing more, nothing less.

...but I can tell you that the game and world you are looking for is one where the average PC is around 2nd or 3rd level and doesn't really gain levels.

That's what I'm looking for? Wow! Didn't know that...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Talon5]

Perhaps that's because the underdark really is quite unsuitable for high level parties.

Wha-? Man, we went into Sunless and ran into Duergar, had to agree not to fight them so that they wouldn't kick our.... donkey. (We were like 3rd lvl when we met them)

In the Forge they (Duergar) killed one NPC and nearly slaughtered the whole party (that was like 5th lvl) in just a matter of a couple of rounds.

Another group went down to take on the Scarlet Lord and lost one party member and got stomped hard (8th lvl) by wondering monsters and the Lord himself.

The GM told us that TP spells don't work right in the UnderDark and that Scrying type spells seem not to completely work or give disinformation (or was it dat information? )

The UnderDark is made more dangerous by how the GM uses it, and how we see it. My characters (mostly 8th-10th lvl) are scared of going down there.

 

[Aaron L]

Underdark is also a good topic, adding to my above post. An exploration into the Underdark with Teleport available just means, that you never have to rest down there or move there without full buffs running. It simply destroys the whole atmosphere of that place, IMHO.

Bye
Thanee

Every detailed description of the Underdark that I have ever read includes a warning about the danger and/or impossibility of teleporting into or through the intense radiation, geological and magical forces contained in it's depths. I'll have to go check Underdark, but I remember the warnings from Drow of the Underdark (I am pretty sure.)


I'd still recomend making in game reasons why these spells aren't good ideas rather than banning them.

 

[WizarDru]

I actually don't know of any adventure right off the top of my mind, which wouldn't work anymore with Teleport gone.

Then you aren't trying hard enough.

Seriously, at high levels, the PCs are veritable gods in some ways. I think you'd be better served at finding ways to challenge high level players with the powers they have, rather than cut them off at the knees. Teleports still require resources to cast, and they're hardly the only spell that can wreck a certain feel to a game, if not managed properly. Most spells in the PHB would ruin the feel of an LotR-type game.

I mean, if you want to force your players to use slow methods of transport, so be it. But I don't think you have to. In fact, my players expect to use their teleports: in fact, they ration them, since they're not sure when they'll need them. In the most recent game, they suddenly found they needed to teleport to Greyhawk, to rescue a Solar from certain destruction at the hands of his former brethren. They had to burn a bunch of spells to get there in time, and get ready for action.

Oh, and you'll want to remove Transport Through Plants, too. You'll want to keep Magic Carpets and lots of other magic items out of their hands. Personally, I think you're trying to hold water, but I certainly don't fault you for it...I just think high-level D&D is going to trip you up in that regard.

 

[Thanee]

Seriously, at high levels, the PCs are veritable gods in some ways.

Seriously, I don't consider 9th level PCs as gods.

Please also reread, what I have written concerning Gate in my initial post.

I think you'd be better served at finding ways to challenge high level players with the powers they have, rather than cut them off at the knees.

Is that what you think I'm proposing?

Most spells in the PHB would ruin the feel of an LotR-type game.

See above, said that twice or so now.

I mean, if you want to force your players to use slow methods of transport, so be it.

Erm, well, if you consider anything which takes longer than instanteneous to be slow...

But I don't think you have to. In fact, my players expect to use their teleports: in fact, they ration them, since they're not sure when they'll need them. In the most recent game, they suddenly found they needed to teleport to Greyhawk, to rescue a Solar from certain destruction at the hands of his former brethren. They had to burn a bunch of spells to get there in time, and get ready for action.

See above. I know very well (and have done that plenty times), that you can make great high level campaigns by using these resources.

Oh, and you'll want to remove Transport Through Plants, too. You'll want to keep Magic Carpets and lots of other magic items out of their hands.

Why would that be!?

Meaning no disrespect (you are at least trying to be helpful, unlike some others), but I think you just havn't really understood what I am talking about?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Saeviomagy]

The GM told us that TP spells don't work right in the UnderDark and that Scrying type spells seem not to completely work or give disinformation (or was it dat information? )

That's what makes it unsuitable.

The underdark is basically a big bunch of caves.

As such, the natural hazards posed by it are not that scary to a high level party.

So of course the rules had to be changed. No scrying, no teleporting etc, etc.

Basically it requires an act of GM fiat to make the environmental challenge a real challenge. Which is bulldust.

Like I said before - I don't want to get to high level, and have my DM rule that all my new abilities just don't work and I've got to go back to where I was at 1st level just because he's not very creative. I want a high level game.

I think if you can't contend with high level magic, don't run high level games.

 

[WizarDru]

Seriously, I don't consider 9th level PCs as gods.

No, but if you're talking about banning 9th level spells like Gate and Teleport Circle, I thought that's what you were discussing, specifically future planning of removal of spells from the lists, for fear of what it'll do.

Please also reread, what I have written concerning Gate in my initial post.

I read it, I just think you underestimate how valuable the spell becomes in the absence of other instaneous transport spells. Two slotsis a small sacrifice for perfect teleport that doesn't even require a scry attempt.

Is that what you think I'm proposing?

Well, I'm not sure...but I suppose it depends on your players, really, both in how they'll react and how they already act. You've mentioned that you think it ruins the feel of certain campaigns, and I don't disagree...but depending on your personal outlook, it could be the 'I don't like that I can't threaten my players using scary overland travel' or 'I don't like my players to bypass my dungeon/setup/etc.'...which is fine, but some players I've gamed with would consider that as railroading; others would consider it a great adventure and a challenge. It could also be the 'teleport and it's ilk rob my game of it's mythic feel', and that's valid, too. It all depends.

It's quite possible I'm not following what your actual goal is, so don't rule that out.

Transport via Plants is another teleport spell, albeit with the limitation of moving through similar vegetation. But it's pretty substantial as well. Going from a tree to a similar tree 5,000 miles away is not mean feat.

 

[Mac Callum]

My problem wasn't that players would use Buff-Scry-Teleport; it was that I couldn't think of any good reason why my BBEG's wouldn't. Why would the BBEG wait for the PC's to get equipped & ready? Better to hide, wait for them to go home, rest, split up around the city as they run errands -- and then send in commando teams to take them out one by one.

Powerful PCs have powerful enemies, you know.

Of course, the PCs were aware this might happen, so they took all kinds of counter-measures. There were items & spells to prevent scrying, throw off divinations, block Teleports, etc. It was an arms race - and both sides committed a lot of resources to it. It was fun -- the first time.

If Teleport the way it is works for your campaign, fine. Piratecat's story hour is a great example of where it works, but I've often wanted to run campaigns where the PCs didn't have to worry about being ambushed at any time (we aren't playing Paranoia: The Dragon Age). I'm thought of a few ways to help make the PCs feel safe at home - without committing a big chunk of resources to it. I don't necessarily use all of them in the same campaign.

1) Construction techniques which defeat Teleport & Divinations, like Alchemical ingredients in the mortar. (You can also tie three cold-iron chains around the trees inside your compound to lock out Treestriders. This is a serious problem when you've angered the Orc Druids of Nightshale Pass.)

2) Needing to know the unique Teleport Pattern of a location to Teleport there (all the major cities and large towns had 'public' patterns which take you to a public square).

3) Telportation magic screws will all other magic. Everyone who Telports subjects themselves, all currently ongoing enchantments and all their items to a targeted Dispel Magic as if they themselves cast it. Teleport Without Error subjects you to a Greater Dispel Magic. Therefore people who Teleport are temporarily helpless - defeating the Commando Team tactic.

[I got the above idea from The Ruins of Ambrai by Melanie Rawn. Highly recommended.]

4) Easily accessible, low level 'redirection' magics which are unavoidable but limited in Area of Effect (so its easy to protect a house/ Tower but not a whole city or forest). Such Redirection magics always have 'keys' that bypass them. You can't redirect people into fusing with granite.


I want to stress, I don't do this to handicap my players or because I can't think of ways to challenge Teleporters. My players have asked for it so they can sleep at night & relax at home.

They know if they don't I won't cut them an inch of slack.

Mac Callum

PS - In ALL campaigns I have a rule that permanent Teleporter Circles cannot be made. The repercussions of that to society are just too crazy to contemplate. The most powerful Teleportation magics which can be made permanent are based on Dimension Door.

It's bad enough that the lowest level Teleport Circle lasts almost three hours - do you have any idea how many troops can be moved anywhere in the multiverse with just one of those? You could put an entire Legion of the Emperor's best Storm Troopers right into the heart of Rebel Base, right from Corusocant, skip the Imperial Walker scene. Now where's the fun in that?

 

[Tewligan]

I've got you beat. In my campaign, I refuse to allow PCs to move at any pace faster than a brisk walk, because running and jogging/hustling are clearly unbalanced.

Gandalf: "Stroll, you fools!"

 

[RangerWickett]

My last campaign explored teleport as a military technology, not merely as a tool for adventurers. Within a few weeks, the world was nearly destroyed.

Logically, in a world where teleportation is possible, people would come up for defenses against teleportation, the same way that, in a world where missiles are possible, people have defenses against those. Now, in this last campaign of mine, the epic struggle was to get control of what basically amounted to the nuclear weapons of the setting, i.e., the ability to teleport armies.

By the end of the game, the party was never getting a chance to level up, because every day someone else was teleporting around, trying to grab Artifact This, or destroy City That. And the party had to stop them, because they were in the thick of it all.

Eventually, everyone who had the ability to teleport either was defeated, or decided to just not go for the big victories. Rather than teleporting an army to sieze a city, or trying to scry-buff-teleport, they'd act like normal world leaders, and simply rely on teleportation for special projects. We basically gamed through a world war in this setting, and in the aftermath, everything was all messed up. The party wanted to return to a safer way of living, and it was generally decided that society would have to create restrictions against teleportation.

I'm writing a serialized fantasy story (linked to in my sig), and I intend to eventually make teleportation factor into the plot. I think it'll be fun.