Let's be clear about the motives behind the original OGL

[Oofta]

That's a transparently false statement.

Based on what? Your statement? How does that add to the discussion?

While I have no clue if the article was correct (and IMHO nobody does) I think it's interesting. I find it plausible. But hey, if you can just reply "nah uh" I guess I may was well acknowledge your well reasoned argument.

 

[Morrus]

That's a transparently false statement.

Also it’s irrelevant. Whether or not the plan was successful, that was the plan. That was the deal they made.

 

[Reynard]

Based on what? Your statement? How does that add to the discussion?

While I have no clue if the article was correct (and IMHO nobody does) I think it's interesting. I find it plausible. But hey, if you can just reply "nah uh" I guess I may was well acknowledge your well reasoned argument.

I honestly can't tell if you are arguing from ignorance, or are being disingenuous, but when you say things like "the OGL didn't help 4E" you display such an extreme misunderstanding of the subject that your arguments should be summarily dismissed.

 

[Oofta]

I honestly can't tell if you are arguing from ignorance, or are being disingenuous, but when you say things like "the OGL didn't help 4E" you display such an extreme misunderstanding of the subject that your arguments should be summarily dismissed.

I found an article I found interesting. If you have such great and insightful knowledge of how the OGL helped 4E please share.

If you can't explain, stop.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I just picked a random number. Why so combative?

Not combative... just commenting. When folks use hyperbole I think it's always good for other folks to point it out as such. Otherwise those statements have a chance of becoming seen as the normal response.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I was designing games before the OGL was a thing. If it never happened, I still would have. Probably not as successful because D&D brand is a big advantage, but I wouldn't have stopped.

I think people who like to make games will always make games (even if it is for a single audience in their living room). But to Morrus' point, lots and lots of people specifically decided to make d20 games and invest their resources in a line of d20 books, because they understood the OGL to be a permanent thing that wouldn't be eliminated. We all understood with each edition WOTC could put out a new license for that particular edition, and that meant people had to make a choice about whether to continue supporting an older system or invest their energy into the new edition, under a new license. But no one ever considered it possible for a new edition and a new license to destroy the original OGL. It was always believed you could make d20 material forever if you wanted to. Them suddenly coming out with a plan to de-authorize has a lot of people feeling like they've been screwed over.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I agree with most of the sentiment. My only disagreement would be the idea that 100 companies would have all made their own games if they knew the OGL was revocable.

In my opinion without the OGL most of those 100 companies would not even exist, let alone make their own games. They only existed because they were hitching their wagon to the comings and going of Dungeons & Dragons because it was the best way for them to make money from the work they did.

And that's even the case today. People make material for D&D not out of the goodness of their heart but because they know it's the best way to have people look at, try out, and buy their stuff. Without D&D and the "marketing" that comes with being compatible with it... most people and companies just wouldn't even make the attempt, is my belief.

I don't think this is true. I think you would have had a big boom in RPGs, because the nature of publishing was changing dramatically in that period. And the reason so many put out tons of games now isn't OGL, it is because Drivethru exists, because POD is a thing, etc.

 

[Steampunkette]

I've decided to view it like a big flower garden - the gardeners have taken umbrage at all the bees flying around and drinking their nectar, and especially at the sweet, sweet honey that the bees have made from it. So they're driving off the bees, not considering that they're not parasites; they symbionts who help pollinate the garden.

This is the most powerful metaphor for what is happening.

But it should be taken one step further: D&D is a big garden with bees, as you laid out. But it was recently purchased by people who don't know anything about gardening -from- the gardener. And they're the ones pissed about the bees.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I don't think this is true. I think you would have had a big boom in RPGs, because the nature of publishing was changing dramatically in that period. And the reason so many put out tons of games now isn't OGL, it is because Drivethru exists, because POD is a thing, etc.

I would disagree with almost all of this.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

This is the most powerful metaphor for what is happening.

But it should be taken one step further: D&D is a big garden with bees, as you laid out. But it was recently purchased by people who don't know anything about gardening -from- the gardener. And they're the ones pissed about the bees.

The new owners give the impression that they would prefer to have a uniform flat lawn instead of an actual garden.

 

[Morrus]

I don't think this is true. I think you would have had a big boom in RPGs, because the nature of publishing was changing dramatically in that period. And the reason so many put out tons of games now isn't OGL, it is because Drivethru exists, because POD is a thing, etc.

This was before DTRPG and before PoD by a decade. That was she they made that deal with us.

 

[Bedrockgames]

This was before DTRPG and before PoD by a decade. That was she they made that deal with us.

Yes, I didn't mean to suggest DTRPG and POD were around then. I meant that the reason so many games are coming out now is because of those two things. I came into publishing in 2009, so the early 2000s were a time I know a lot less about and was speculating. My understanding is things like desktop publishing and changes in distribution were changing publishing making it easier to get into publishing at that time (again this was more my impression from the outside at that time, as I was a customer who was becoming more interested in entering publishing).

Out of curiosity when did DTRPG and POD become widely available ?(by the time I got into in 2009, POD was definitely an option, and while it wasn't consolidated into one platform, Drivethru and RPGnow were both around).

 

[Bedrockgames]

I would disagree with almost all of this.

I was definitely speculating so I am not sure. But I guess my point is the OGL didn't do anything that I am aware of to make actually entering publishing easier. It didn't change the fact that to start a game company you still have to invest in pre-production and post production for example. It just meant you didn't need to make your own system (but prior to d20, people put out original systems all the time)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I feel for you. But I guess at that time you were not deceived. The people you dealt with probably acted in good faith. It is not the people back then, but the people today.
Probably someone should have read the fineprint and when everyone updated their licenses to be explicitely irrevocable, it should have been the time to ask them to update their license too.


That said, I think whoncould know 20 years ago how everything is working out, that wotc and RPGs in genral are still alive. If you all had not decided to go with 3e back then, would you still be in business. Would anyone still be in business in this industry. There is usually not coming a lot out of hindsight. It is deveiving to look at events past and ask yourself: what if.

And still, I think the way the situation right now was handled terribly. And until the new license is out, there is a lot of insecurity and the bad feeling will probably remain if wotc does not go out of their way and make the old or new ogl irrevocable and fair.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

WotC couldn't find any way to profit from the IP. World of Darkness would likely still be the game for the cool kids, and the synonym for Role Playing. A few people still playing using the old books from when they grew up.

that is not even close to a given.

I could as easly say that when they changed to 4e people would complain and storm out, but with no 1 localized alternative 4e would have gone on as people came back... when 5e came out (most likely around 2017 or 2018 it would be to 4e what 2e was to 1e... an evolution. Then with big bang and stranger things and critical roll and the pandemic that 5e would take off as the biggest best game and would to day STILL be having a movie and TV show...

 

[Morrus]

that is not even close to a given.

it’s not a given but it was a possibility. D&D was in the doldrums. WotC approached White Wolf with this proposition. That was the bargain they made with the TTRPG publishing community of the time.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

it’s not a given but it was a possibility. D&D was in the doldrums. WotC approached White Wolf with this proposition. That was the bargain they made with the TTRPG publishing community of the time.

oh I don't doubt it's possible. If we go with "Alternate History" I bet we could as a group find 10 likely out comes of having the OGL or not having the OGL some where wizards is a huge success and some where they failed.

 

[Reynard]

it’s not a given but it was a possibility. D&D was in the doldrums. WotC approached White Wolf with this proposition. That was the bargain they made with the TTRPG publishing community of the time.

It's also impossible to know how 3E would have fared without the OGL. It is entirely possible that it would have been a flash in the pan and then just fizzled and there never even would have been a 4E.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I feel for you. But I guess at that time you were not deceived. The people you dealt with probably acted in good faith. It is not the people back then, but the people today.
Probably someone should have read the fineprint and when everyone updated their licenses to be explicitely irrevocable, it should have been the time to ask them to update their license too.


That said, I think whoncould know 20 years ago how everything is working out, that wotc and RPGs in genral are still alive. If you all had not decided to go with 3e back then, would you still be in business. Would anyone still be in business in this industry. There is usually not coming a lot out of hindsight. It is deveiving to look at events past and ask yourself: what if.

And still, I think the way the situation right now was handled terribly. And until the new license is out, there is a lot of insecurity and the bad feeling will probably remain if wotc does not go out of their way and make the old or new ogl irrevocable and fair.

I just don't see that happening. WotC is convinced they can't do what they want without killing 1.0a, so they won't back down on that point. The only way to see movement on that is for someone to try to use the OGL in their despite and see what happens.

 

[Morrus]

It's also impossible to know how 3E would have fared without the OGL. It is entirely possible that it would have been a flash in the pan and then just fizzled and there never even would have been a 4E.

It also doesn’t matter. It's the deal they made. Who cares whether it worked out for them. I spent $100K on Level Up instead of WOIN based on their promise. I spent 20 years supporting their game and building my business around it based on their promise. I do not care that they regret that promise, and I will not be gaslighted about it. I was there.