Let's build an imbalanced rogue

[StreamOfTheSky]

Since Bacris did intimidation based melee w/ sap master, I'll try a dagger thrower just to not be too similar. Note: I'm using a shaky reading where Enforcer's "Whenever you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon" takes into account that dagger is classified as a melee weapon even if using it for a ranged attack. Build literally falls apart w/o that RAW reading.

Human Thug Rogue
Traits: Blade of Mercy (can do nonlethal w/ any slashing weapon; +1 damage when doing so)

Feats:
1 TWF
1 Enforcer [Human]
2 Weapon Finesse [Finesse Rogue talent]
3 Quickdraw
4 Weapon Focus (Dagger) [Weapon Training Rogue talent]
5 PBS
6 Precise Shot [Ninja Trick (Combat Trick) Rogue talent]
7 Dazzling Display
8 Shatter Defenses [Combat Trick Rogue talent]
9 Rapid Shot
10 Improved Critical (Dagger) ["Feat" Rogue advanced talent]
11 Clustered Shots
12 (not sure we can throw away unique yet worthless class features for bonus feats anymore)
13 ITWF
14 (as with 12)
15 Improved Precise Shot


...yeah, that's pretty godawful and feat starved. I didn't even want to make it human, but the feats were just too numerous.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

In reponse to Systole:

EDIT: Haven't they errata'ed the Ninja Combat trick + Rogue Combat Trick yet?

Rogue

"Ninja Trick (Ex): A rogue with this talent can choose a trick from the ninja trick list. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool. A rogue can pick this talent more than once."

Ninja Trick (Ex) - Pathfinder_OGC

"Ninja Trick (Ex)

Benefit: A rogue with this talent can choose a trick from the ninja trick list. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool.

Special: A rogue can pick this talent more than once."

So...it appears that's a no. I wouldn't be surprised if it happens soon, though. Paizo has shown themselves to be pretty quick to act when the martials "need" a good nerfin'.

 

[SteelDraco]

Interesting. The ninja trick Rogue Talent says you can't take a talent with the same name as a ninja trick, but Ninja Trick for the rogue doesn't have equivalent text. I didn't notice that before.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's one of the few advantages Rogue has over Ninja.

And now...I'll attempt an archer utilizing Oracle dip.

Half-Elf Rake Rogue (no archetype really helps...Sniper would if DM houseruled their extended range to synergize w/ Sniper's Goggles). Takes Dual-Cursed Oracle dip at 3, though it doesn't really matter when as long as it comes early on. Curses are tongues and lame. Used Ancestral Arms to trade skill focus for MWP (longbow).

Feats, talents, and revelations
1 Point Blank Shot
2 Rapid Shot [Combat Trick Rogue talent]
3 Water Sight Revelation [Oracle]
5 Extra Revelation (Misfortune)
5 Weapon Focus (longbow) [Weapon Training Rogue talent]
7 Deadly Aim
7 Dazzling Display
9 Clustered Shots
9 Shatter Defenses [Ninja Trick (Combat Trick) Rogue talent]

Sniper's Goggles ASAP is build critical so you're not limited to 30 ft for sneak attacking, as you'll be sitting tight in a cloud. You use oracle slots and a wand to put up an obscuring mist. Anyone not adjacent to you cannot see you and thus SA applies. A seeking bow is also very important, since any miss chance at all screws a rogue over hard core. The D-C oracle and misfortune is just cause it's a nice buff and debuff ability, if you don't want it, there is no reason at all to be dual-cursed.

A means of flight to hover in the air would be ideal. This build was intended for a Vivv. alchemist w/ the Wings discovery, honestly. Deadly Aim exists only to help against SA-immune foes; NEVER use it when you can sneak attack! This build also ends up with Shatter Defenses (with Rake's intimidation option used on round 1 to set up a never-ending fountain of flatfooted-ness) as an alternate means of sneak attacking; there really isn't much in the way of feats needed beyond the big 3.

Obscuring Mist is vulnerable to fire attacks and winds, and Shatter Defenses fails against feat immune, but otherwise a pretty effective build.

 

[Systole]

I, too, thought that the idea was to show that Rogues can't break the game, even when they try. Of course, in the context of the other thread, wouldn't it be better to give builds (for any class) that are unbelievably, extremely overpowered?

Your post implies that there's a desired outcome. I don't think that's the case, at least for me. I'm here because I'd like to give this an honest try, whichever way it turns out. That said, I'm pretty sure that even the most broken rogue build is going to struggle in the DPR Olympics ... but I'm perfectly fine being wrong.

I'll download some DPR spreadsheets later tonight and give my Scout/Swashbuckler a try. I think I'll name him Pokey McRunsalot.

 

[Bacris]

Your post implies that there's a desired outcome. I don't think that's the case, at least for me. I'm here because I'd like to give this an honest try, whichever way it turns out. That said, I'm pretty sure that even the most broken rogue build is going to struggle in the DPR Olympics ... but I'm perfectly fine being wrong.

I'll download some DPR spreadsheets later tonight and give my Scout/Swashbuckler a try. I think I'll name him Pokey McRunsalot.

Well, now, we have some level-setting to do here.

I never said "broken DPR" - I said imbalance. Imbalance doesn't mean high damage throughput.

 

[Systole]

Well, now, we have some level-setting to do here.

I never said "broken DPR" - I said imbalance. Imbalance doesn't mean high damage throughput.

Well, it can, but your point is taken. Broken to me usually means extra high DPR, but it can also mean ridiculous, unbeatable lockdowns. Or one-hit kills with unreachable saving throws.

 

[Bacris]

Exactly.

Unavoidable combinations / ridiculous DCs / etc...

 

[joah_from_Alberta]

I wish the rogue hadn't inherited the title of walking corpse in 3.5

I wish the rogue was more bouncy like spider-man or upbeat like deadpool.

We play with a sophisticated level of organizations using genetic algorithms to determine the sandbox developments of our campaign societies (and modules). The program uses rogues extensively as a network agent to determine the best pathways to subjugate other organizations. They are also employed by the party as agents to scout target organizations prior to setting out. Depending on the amount of gold given and organizational factors between involved factions, the amount of reconnaissance can mean life or death to the adventurer.

On certain adventures it is necessary to set up a perimeter of rogues around the module to create a buffer against other organizational incursion. Nothing like trying to raid a manor and having another party stomping in after you (how embarrassing). Also, paying an organization to have a rogue stand-by (fingers crossed) is crucial for requesting outside assistance should a door need opening or a character need cure whatever.

In our game we have determined the rogue to be more beneficial as a passive character.

Cheers,

 

[prototype00]

Human Rogue (Scout, Thug)

Feats:
1st: Weapon Finesse
Human Bonus: Sap Adept
3rd: Knockout Artist
5th: Sap Mastery

Rogue Talents:
2nd: Ninja Trick (Unarmed Combat Training)
4th: Combat Trick (Enforcer)

So at 5th level, whenever you charge someone, they are flatfooted (thanks to scout). Since they are flat footed, you deal double nonlethal sneak attack damage (6d6, thanks to sap mastery).

Since you were using your pimp-hand to deal the damage, you deal 1.5 times your level in extra damage due to sap adept and knockout artist. (In this case at level 5, 9 extra damage)

Now Enforcer comes into play, you can intimidate your foe as a free action, because you dealth nonlethal damage (Hope you didn't dump cha). If you succeed, they are shaken for a number of rounds based on the damage you just did (6d6 + 9 minimum), so lets say, forever, basically.
Thats -2 to attacks, skills, saves.

...Or you could switch all those rounds of shaken for one round of frightend (via the thug archetype) where:

Quote:
A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

Frightened is like shaken, except that the creature must flee if possible. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear.

Which is basically taking any enemy out of the fight for one round, guarunteed and best part is, no save. And since the target for intimidate is static (10 + HD + wis mod), boost it enough (I recommend a cane that gives you an enhancement bonus to intimidate) and you don't have to worry about the enemy making a lucky roll.

That's at 5th level, will expand to 10th.

Oh, hey, it's my Da Pimp Sap Mastery build! Nice to see that it's being put forth as an example rogue build.

prototype00

Edit: Just re-read the thread title, is the consensus that this build is imbalanced? (Sad face.)