Lets determine together what the soul is, and what are its game mechanics

[Turanil]

Well, I have just read this thread in the general forum:

A slight problem here, in a current game, a player's character had his soul ripped from him. Still alive, and still himself, conscious wise, still knowing who he is.

For game mechanics purposes, how it would be dealt in the game?

I think this is indeed an interesting point for a fantasy game (I am NOT trying to be RL religious here!). What is supposed to be the soul? What does it mean "selling it"? What if a character's soul is stolen? I mean: I have read several novels where a sorcerer/demon puts his soul in some safe place for whatever reason*. Also other stories where someone's soul is stolen, sold, etc. But this concept is nebulous IMO, so lets determine together some game mechanics about it.


I don't know personnally how to treat this subject. One of the ideas in the original thread:

Anyway:
Body + Soul + Spirit = Living being
Body + Spirit = Ghoul (not Undead imc)
Body + Soul = Undead
Soul + Spirit = Ghost (incorporeal undead)

*: In the Fred Saberhagen's novel Empire of the East, there is something like that. There is a super demon, a sort of advanced balor ("Zapranoth") who gets out of his cave against a whole army and begins destroying it all by himself. Wizards are sent against that uber demon and all die almost instantaneously, except for the archmage who has a hard time against him and is slowly losing and dying (this is a sort of psionic battle). Then, the hero (if I remember well) who had got the info, comes to an innocent girl they just found and liberated a few hours before. In fact the demon had hidden his soul into the girl's hair!! In destroying the hair, the hero destroys the demon who cannot do anything to prevent it despite his incredible powers.

I could get a look into BoED and BoVD to see what they propose on the subject, but I don't remember there is anything about it.

 

[glass]

A multi-part soul is quite common in real world mythology (IIRC, the Egyption soul had 9 parts!), and I think it would make sense in D&D too.

For one thing, it would neatly answer the questions regarding why creating undead was evil, without creating problems with using animate dead to kill pit fiends: an undead creature has part of a soul in it, but not all of it. Maybe different parts for different types of undead.

It also allows speak with dead to work regardless of a campigns afterlife provisions.



glass.

 

[Dakkareth]

My take (IMC):

Your body is the physical matrix, within which mind(spirit) and soul exist. It allows beings to influence their surroundings, keeps the three parts together and lets the soul come into being. (Attributes tied to the body are strength, constitution (physical hardiness) and physical dexterity (nimble fingers))

The spirit is the sum of all conscious thought. Intentions, knowledge and will all are properties of the spirit as are emotions. Beings without a spirit are mindless and without control of their bodies. (Attributes tied to the spirit are Intelligence, Dexterity(fine control of movements) and the experience/insight aspect of wisdom).

The soul is what makes you a living being. It's the sum of all processes of life within your body and fuels the energies of the spirit. It's a pattern of life-force, that lets emotions burn brighter and gifts intuitive understanding. (Attributes tied to the soul are the intuition/strength of character aspect of wisdom, constitution(recovery and resistance to magic) and charisma)

Body + Soul + Spirit = Living being
Body + Spirit = 'Undead'
Body + Soul = Mindless Entity (oozes)
Soul + Spirit = advanced, incorporeal being*
Spirit = Incorporeal 'Undead', ancestral and guiding spirits, gods**

*such entities have transcended the need for a body through their understanding of the cosmos. Often they are as far above humans as humans are above fishes - not wholly different, but still much more. Some are no more than incorporeal human minds while others dwarf the gods of humanity as they dwarf a mortal, non-intelligent animal.

**While gods technically fall into this category as they are made of the stuff of believe, the stuff of the outer planes, they don't count as undead.

The consequences:

Magic is the manipulation of mental energy, a matter of the spirit. It taps into the reservoirs of spirit energy that are the planes and shapes it.

Psionics abilities tap into the life-force that is the soul. Only those strong in mind and soul can attempt to utilize these miniscule forces and apply them in the right place, where a small nudge can move a mountain.


There is no such thing as 'undead' in the usual thing. Death means oblivion for almost all intents and purposes, not shambling about as zombies. Bodies animated by strong forces of the spirit (including magic) are often titled as undead for their appearance, even though it isn't true. Liches are wizards, who power their failing bodies entirely by magic without the invigoration of a soul. This is an extreme stadium however, which they are forced into after centuries. Most people extending their life-span experience only a gradual diminishing of their life-force as force of will takes over. Only the very strongest of spirits can exist entirely without a body to use as physical matrix.

When a being dies, the three parts of its existance go separate ways. The body decomposes. The soul dissipates, returns its energy to the life that birthed it or maybe flees to some hidden dimension - not even the greatest of necromancers agree on this. The spirit likewise dissipates without structure to support it and life to empower it. In some cases however, mostly with powerful sorcerers, the spirit manages to endure by tapping into external sources of energy and being forced into a vicious circle of dependance, weakening and dissolution.

True Necromancy being the blending of sorcery (spirit) and psionics (soul) deals with the matters of the truly dead, the manipulation of the soul and convertion between spiritual and life energy. The number of entities versed in this much reviled art and source of incredible power is seldom greater than two or three on any given continent of a normal world and even then it's mostly tidbits and small (but scary) 'tricks'. Those beings composed only of mind and soul excel at this discipline; gods, having no souls can't employ it (which is of course, why it is so hated in most lands).

 

[Turanil]

I like the idea that magic just requires a spirit/mind, but that psionics require a soul. I would like to also determine about the "astral body": something that gets used with a few spells and psionics. Otherwise, a few suggestions to think about:

1) The soul is immortal, it resides in the astral body, which is also probably immortal, turning into a "petitioner" in the outer planes upon death.

2) The soul feeds on life experiences. During incarnation into a living body, it goes (in the astral body) from the outer planes to the material plane. The association of the two (soul with a spirit in a body) enables to learn and "spiritually grow". It means that the soul eventually reaches a point where it has got a definitive alignment in the outer planes, and becomes an outsider that grows into a bigger fiend or angels, etc. Well, this however uses the idea of reincarnation that may not be to the liking of everyone.

3) A body deprived of its soul is usually vegetative, as occurs with the astral projection spell. However, with the appropriate magic the soulless body could continue to act. This results in a creature that acts somewhat like a zombie. A living zombie can continue to perform things, but cannot really learn (so doesn't gain XP), is not creative, and cannot change the intent it had when the soul still was there (if set on accomplishing a mission cannot change idea until the soul gets back into it). Advantage: a wizard who hides his soul in a container can die, he just needs other magic to clone a new body in which his soul will go and resume life; then, a demon can kill the body but not steal the wizard's soul (especially useful for evil characters that "sold their soul" to the devil in dabbling in evil ways and evil sorcery; while other characters should have only to fear physical death).


Well, these are quick ideas to discuss and improve anyway.

 

[Dakkareth]

Duh, I forgot some important things in my post:

The spirit being powered by the soul is a very important part of this cosmology. It is the reason, why gods need mortal worshippers to support them with their belief - they can't generate their own 'spiritual sustenance'.

The external sources of mental energy, which are tapped by mages, all stem forth from the primal chaos. The closer one's source is to chaos the more powerful is the magic you can conjure, but the strain on your spirit created by the destructive properties of chaos increases likewise. Thus relying purely upon magic to sustain oneself damages those not of singular willpower, which explains why so many 'undead' go mad or become 'evil' - they are constantly exposed to the diluted chaos that is magic, without a soul to counteract this influence.

Also IMC only elves (more Tolkien-like than standard DnD and very rare) possess the necessary strength in life-force and knowledge to employ psionics. Half-elven descendants sometimes retain this ability and sometimes a human exhibits psionic abilities for unknown reasons. Also all kinds of charm, sympathy and attraction effects are the sole domain of psionics and magical domination effects require a level of mastery only archmages and gods possess.

---------

Integrating some of these ideas into DnD ... most of the time, when the soul is mentioned in spell descriptions/etc it assumes, that it is both mind and life-force. Upon turning into a petitioner the two get separated, though: The mind is absorbed by a plane or deity, while the soul is shaped into a physical form, retaining most of the being's character but without the memories and abilities. This is also why resurrections are so complicated - the deity must un-assimilate the spirit, fetch the petitioner, heal the body and unite the three again - something mortal magic (a wizard's for example) can accomplish only with great difficulty.

 

[Vrecknidj]

Which, if any, of these "parts" are in themselves magical?

For instance, the body is clearly a physical thing. It's affected by physical forces, like gravity. A soul, however (or mind, or spirit, or pick your favorite thing that can be described as non-physical) isn't physical, and so shouldn't be subject to physical forces.

So, with the earth rotating at 1000mph, and traveling around the sun at 60,000mph, why does a spirit (or any other incorporeal thing) stay "with" the earth. I know why physical bodies stay with the earth, I get Newtonian physics. But why would an incorporeal "object" do so? If, in D&D, we used the answer "magic" (whether divine or arcane), I'd be satisfied. But, does this mean the incorporeal thing itself (including, in this case, a person's soul) is itself magical? Or just that there are magical forces that affect it, and that those forces somehow duplicate the physical forces that keep the physical body tied to the planet?

The whole idea that the soul and body are different and separable things has a varied history. Until Descartes, the question hadn't really gone through such a deep analysis (for anyone interested, I suggest his Meditations, you could Google it and get public domain copies of the work--both html and text).

His ideas could be helpful in anyone trying to build a framework for a D&D model. (If you're really in for a treat, read Spinoza's work, just consider the title of one of his essays: The Mind as the Idea of the Body.)

Dave

 

[Truth Seeker]

Deeper Thought...

My, my...didn't know that this will spark some thinking , but the none the less, it has happened in the game I am in, and therefore for the future, to deal with it, any input, will be greated valued.

This is another response at another forum, where the question was posed also, but had to disguise it, so that current DM didn't feel I infringed on the game story(long story...) My friend Chooper, gave her two pennies.

Great question.

How does a being act in the absence of their soul?

What is the souls function?


Mirriam-Webster's website offers up the following definitions:

1: the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause
of an individual life
2 : the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational
and spiritual beings, or the universe
3 : a person's total self
4: a) an active or essential part b) a moving spirit

5: a) the moral and emotional nature of human beings b) the quality
that arouses emotion and sentiment c) spiritual or moral force

Based on definition #5-a, which I like best, a being without a soul
would be immoral, unemotional, and likely to be motivated by logic and
instinct. Think Spock without the ability to tell right from wrong.
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" would become
"My needs outweigh everyone elses needs".

I don't believe that the loss of a soul would have any impact on
physical or mental ability. Memories would still accumulate, and the
body would function as normal.

Rebuttal anyone?

 

[Turanil]

Mmmmh... I still don't know what to think. For one thing I don't want to go into a RL religious discussion, so cannot discuss about what the soul is supposed to be, or if such a thing exists at all. But then there is the problem of game mechanics in D&D. After all, the "cool" fantasy stuff is what happens when one hides his soul into a special container, or that his soul is stolen.

[Just for the anecdote: as a DM, once, a sorcerer obliged the PCs to perform a mission for him, because he had "stolen their souls" and would give them back once the mission comleted. In fact, the sorcerer had cast illusion and suggestion spells on them. The PCs did what asked because they were afraid, but their souls weren't involved in any way! ]

Right now, I would suggest that the soul is an immaterial and immortal principle that has to do with morality, as related to the 9 alignments. The soul reincarnates as much as it is necessary to acquire one such alignment, then becomes an outsider (angel, fiend, etc.). I would say that a character whose soul is not in his body cannot make moral or immoral choices; and to add something shouldn't be able to gain XPs. Then, the character slowly dies or turns into a living zombie, although it takes several weeks.

What I would like to find, is something simple; but something that gives interesting consequences when someone's soul is not anymore in his body. Then, only fiends should be able to steal a soul, and only of people who have virtually sold their soul to Hell anyway (such as evil necromancers). Those people would be interested in hiding their soul, but other characters would not have to be afraid. The fact is, if a much evil mage would die, his soul would go directly into Hell / Abysses, and no Resurection spell could bring him back, unless an evil god decides so (while a non-evil character could be resurected without problem). As such, evil necromancers and the like hide their soul so won't go to hell if their body is killed, but will remain in the container, etc.

 

[fuindordm]

Mmmmh... I still don't know what to think. For one thing I don't want to go into a RL religious discussion, so cannot discuss about what the soul is supposed to be, or if such a thing exists at all. But then there is the problem of game mechanics in D&D. After all, the "cool" fantasy stuff is what happens when one hides his soul into a special container, or that his soul is stolen.

Truth Seeker's response reminds me of the Buffyverse definition of a soul. Having one or not having one doesn't seem to make a huge difference except as a source of angst.

 

[Turanil]

I would add this: petitioners (Manual of the Plane, out of memory) are supposed to don't remember about their previous life, and not have levels or class. If so lets guess that a soul is not the mind for one thing, and don't keep memories. However, the soul goes to the outer plane of appropriate alignment, so it could be deemed that the only thing that matters is the alignment; that is: the moral choice.

Henceforth, the immortal sparks of divinity in any mortal creature, is in the mortal world before all to learn make a moral choice, of Law vs Chaos, of Good vs Evil. This is the reason they don't grow in the outer planes, since outer planes have an actual alignment, which is not the case of the material plane.

Now, in the light of this, being deprived of one's soul, should have effects related to alignment and moral choice. However, to make the game more interesting, this should bring some actual effects. I think that being deprived of choice should induce effects:
-- For one thing I do like the idea that you cannot gain XP while your soul is not there. Although there is no "rationale" for that (if you accept the above theory), it makes something clearly hindering. You could explain that the soul is there to learn, so the character cannot learn without a soul.
-- If the soul is here to make a moral choice, maybe an important thing is that without soul, one cannot make choices, except those driven by basic needs and necessities. How translate this in game terms (and something interesting)? Maybe a person without soul is not allowed saving throws against charm and suggestion spells? (remember that outsiders are immune to them).
-- Also, soul destroyed should induce different and more dramatic effects than simply the soul stolen or in any way out of the body.

Otherwise: undead and souls: clearly zombies don't have a soul; while liches and vampires probably have one. Vampires are souls who already definitely made the choice of CE, but remain on material plane unaturally and unduly. Undead and souls proobably is a case by case basis.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: my intent is to create a PDF document (only one or two pages long) that would be available for everyone to download (as was the case with d100-city-block thread for example). So your imput is welcome to create something that would be usable by a majority of people.

Thanks