Lets determine together what the soul is, and what are its game mechanics

[Doctor Bomb]

I wonder if the six character attributes can be considered along the same lines? (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha.) Hmm, hmm...needs more thinking.

Well, IMC I deal with this issue as well, especially as the characters get up in the demon-fighting levels (10+). I am about on the same wavelength as Orichin here, with a little more DND planar cosmology.

The mind is the seat of Intelligence, and IS an Astral body, housed on the Material Plane in the brain. While traveling astrally, the mind leaves the body, and in death, the mind often fragments, some clinging to the soul, some being released as ectoplasmic energy (and with no portal to the Astral plane, becoming one with the protomater mist of the Ethereal plane), and some remaining with the corpse (thus the Speak with Dead and similar spells do not require contacting the Outer planes, but don't always net you the information you are looking for).

The soul is the seat of Wisdom, and is an ethical/moral piece of planar energy (in the Forgotten Realms this would be the Weave {or Shadow Weave for some critters}) which is tied to the creature's plane of origin, but through life choices may be aligned with an ideal or deity, and thus pass on to another plane after the death of the body. Trap the Soul and other spells that remove the soul from the body leave a comatose creature (no Wisdom score) which can be used as a puppet by anyone with the proper spells or talents.

With a strong enough connection to an ideal, the soul will keep most of the mind with it as it becomes a larvae, petitioner, or other Outer planar creature, but without the original physical brain, the memory paths are new, and thus the creature doesn't *usually* remember any of its former life.

Fey creatures and elementals are special cases. The fey are corporeal but do not have traditional souls, and almost never have any connections to Outer planar powers or ideals for their own sake, and so nearly all are directly subsumed into the Prime upon death or shortly thereafter (no corpse left behind for long.) They are the original "native outsider", and don't travel to the outer planes except in the company of the Seelie or Unseelie Court, as they fall under the rules of "outsiders away from their home plane" while not on the Prime and don't like the idea of leaving a corpse for somebody to pick over.

Elementals (including genies) are tied so strongly to their planes of origin that, like outsiders, their animating forces are subsumed into the plane, but they too leave behind a corpse while not on their native plane. As the corpse is usually elemental in nature, it immediately looses any semblance of an intelligent creature and thus cannot be raised, communicated with, etc. The intelligent elementals can become permanently aligned, but must acquire a template to bond with any plane other than that of their origin (and a fiendish dao will still not leave a soul - if it is killed on the lower planes, it becomes some native creature with the "earth" subtype, or may even just become an interesting rock.)

Ghosts and other incorporeal undead are the result of a soul that is more strongly aligned with the Prime than with any outer plane (maybe that's why there aren't nearly as many Neutral petitioners as there are neutral ghosts) and who retain some part of their minds, usually relating to death and emotional attachments.

Incorporeal creatures that are not undead are creatures of pure magical energy, and are the spirits that shamans and others call upon when communing. They ARE souls, but are usually mindless unless they have a matrix to store their minds (such as forest spirits or mountain spirits.)

Charisma is the attribute that measures the strength that energy. The undead and some other creatures use negative energy. Highly charismatic undead are usually those with more mind because more of their mind (their sense of self, so to speak) is bound to their soul. Positive energy provides the spark of life that creatures who are not undead need to bind the elements together. Outsiders, elementals, and fey use the energy of the plane they are native to.

 

[JDowling]

. . .I think the conception of body + soul + mind/spirit strays a bit from what can be infered from the D&D rules as written. . .

on second thought a version of this conception seems to be supported by the astral plane and associated psionic abilities, my issue however still comes back to the way reincarnation is dealt with.

When a character is reincarnated into the form of say, a badger, if I recall correctly the character acquires new physical statistics but retains INT, WIS, and CHA. Thus it seems we can safely attribute INT, WIS, and CHA to the immaterial portion of the existant creature (however, immaterial is called into question in certain planes, but one could assert that simply the nature of how reality functions in such planes is so abstract to how it functions in the prime material plane that concerns of what is or is not material in the prime have no bearing necessarily on what is or is not material in the others) whereas STR, CON, and DEX are tied to the physical manifestation we see in the prime material.

However, that assertion about the dualistic nature of the system does not preclude the possibility that it could be a "tri-istic" conception where mind is really distinct from soul. Then one must ask in what meaningful way is mind distinct from soul if they always travel together? In the Astral plane the three "immaterial statistics" (INT, WIS, CHA) all play important roles while, at least in some versions of the spell, the physical shell and associated "material statistics" are left on the prime material plane (although, I admit I am not as robust in knowledge of how astral statistics work in 3e, and 3.5e I assume that the nature of the issue remains the same as 2e where the "mental stats" replace the "physical stats").

If it turns out to be the case that there is no significant difference between the mind and the soul, or that there is no case where the mind or soul is present without the other, one must then ask that if they are distinct, does it matter?

Perhaps one could point to the partitioners as being a soul seperated from the mind, but cannot the partitioners still think? Isn't it more the case that the partitioner had their memories wiped clean instead of having their intellect ripped away from them?

These sorts of questions really get to the heart of the matter of if there is a consistent metaphysical theory underlying the D&D multiverse, and if so, what is it? If not, should there be one, and what should the nature of it be?

I find the question rather interesting because I've been toying with the idea of making some house rules for a campaign to have a robust and clear metaphysical theory that the world follows so that when "the hard questions" come up I, as DM, know the answers already. Also, a world based on certain readings of Aristotle or Berkeley would be quite interesting, I think at least.

 

[Dakkareth]

I have talked before about the ideas I use IMC, now I'm trying to formulate some more general terms. This will probably be quite stream-of-consciousness-like, but nevermind ...

Now, if we're trying to define soul, mind, spirit, magic, body, etc within the context of DnD, we need to take a look at all the given things, that are connected to it. This includes:

- Resurrection & reincarnation
- Petitioner status, the outer planes and outsiders
- undead of different kinds (special: liches, demiliches, ghosts)
- spells: trap the soul, astral projection, soul bind, clone, magic jar, speak with dead, enervation, energy drain

Some quotes from the SRD, emphasis mine:

Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose.

When a living creature dies, its soul departs the body, leaves the Material Plane, travels through the Astral Plane, and goes to abide on the plane where the creature’s deity resides. If the creature did not worship a deity, its soul departs to the plane corresponding to its alignment. Bringing someone back from the dead means retrieving his or her soul and returning it to his or her body.

Level Loss: The passage from life to death and back again is a wrenching journey for a being’s soul. Consequently, any creature brought back to life usually loses one level of experience.

If the target fails its save, the soul of the target is instantly drawn from its body and trapped within one of the gems incorporated into the demilich’s form. The gem gleams for 24 hours, indicating the captive soul within. The soulless body collapses in a mass of corruption and molders in a single round, reduced to dust. If left to its own devices, the demilich slowly devours the soul over 24 hours-at the end of that time the soul is completely absorbed, and the victim is forever gone.

By casting magic jar, you place your soul in a gem or large crystal (known as the magic jar), leaving your body lifeless. Then you can attempt to take control of a nearby body, forcing its soul into the magic jar. [...] While in the magic jar, you can sense and attack any life force within 10 feet per caster level (and on the same plane of existence). [...] In a group of life forces, you can sense a difference of 4 or more Hit Dice between one creature and another and can determine whether a life force is powered by positive or negative energy. (Undead creatures are powered by negative energy. Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.) [...] If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host’s life force is imprisoned in the magic jar. You keep your [mental stats and get the physical ones]. [...] If the host body is slain beyond the range of the spell, both you and the host die. Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain.

Trap the soul forces a creature’s life force (and its material body) into a gem. The gem holds the trapped entity indefinitely or until the gem is broken and the life force is released, which allows the material body to reform. [...] Material Component: Before the actual casting of trap the soul, you must procure a gem of at least 1,000 gp value for every Hit Die possessed by the creature to be trapped. If the gem is not valuable enough, it shatters when the entrapment is attempted. (While creatures have no concept of level or Hit Dice as such, the value of the gem needed to trap an individual can be researched. Remember that this value can change over time as creatures gain more Hit Dice.)

You [soul bind] draw the soul from a newly dead body and imprison it in a black sapphire gem. The subject must have been dead no more than 1 round per caster level. The soul, once trapped in the gem, cannot be returned through clone, raise dead, reincarnation, resurrection, true resurrection, or even a miracle or a wish. Only by destroying the gem or dispelling the spell on the gem can one free the soul (which is then still dead).

Focus: A black sapphire of at least 1,000 gp value for every Hit Die possessed by the creature whose soul is to be bound.

Diamond Soul (Ex): At 13th level, a monk gains spell resistance equal to her current monk level + 10. In order to affect the monk with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the monk’s spell resistance.

The Void: This black card spells instant disaster. The character’s body continues to function, as though comatose, but her psyche is trapped in a prison somewhere—in an object on a far plane or planet, possibly in the possession of an outsider. A wish or a miracle does not bring the character back, instead merely revealing the plane of entrapment. Draw no more cards.

DEATH ATTACKS
*In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the affect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly.
Raise dead doesn’t work on someone killed by a death attack.
*Death attacks slay instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive.
*In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how she died, has –10 hit points.

Some horrible creatures, especially undead monsters, possess a fearsome supernatural ability to drain levels from those they strike in combat. The creature making an energy drain attack draws a portion of its victim’s life force from her. [...] Each successful energy drain attack bestows one or more negative levels on the opponent.

Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage: A deity is not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage.

By freeing your spirit from your physical body, this spell allows you to project an astral body onto another plane altogether. [...] You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation. The spell projects an astral copy of you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane. Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.
While you are on the Astral Plane, your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically. Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord. When a second body is formed on a different plane, the incorporeal silvery cord remains invisibly attached to the new body. If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation. Although astral projections are able to function on the Astral Plane, their actions affect only creatures existing on the Astral Plane; a physical body must be materialized on other planes.

(Interesting, what googling through the SRD turns up ... Now let me take a step back and take a look at the madness I gathered)

 

[Dakkareth]

(Continuing stream-of-consciousness style)

As we knew before, the distinction is mostly between body and soul in the text. Mind, spirit, etc are never mentioned. There's the term 'life-force' however, which is a little ambigous: At many points it's used synonymous with 'soul', at others it is differently. Intelligent undead *do* have souls according to the spell description of magic jar, but theirs is powered by negative energy. Do mindless undead have a life-force, too?

And what's the deal with the 'spirit'? This term is only ever used in reference to incorporeal undead, elementals AND in the astral projection spell description. There's other interesting stuff in that text, too: An 'astral body' can be projected using the spell; this term is *also* only used in conjunction with this spell and abilities emulating it. What's more, if your silver cord is severed, you die - at first this seems as simple as 'Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain', but then why can't a silver sword threaten a magic jar using wizard? What state exactly are you in, when astrally projecting?

Another interesting thing is, what happens to a body without soul. In the case of a demilich's attack, it crumbles to dust within seconds. With trap the soul it's entrapped as well. The Void leaves the body functioning, but without a soul. There must be a difference between these modes of attack, if we stay within the context of this research.

Finally, the thing that is to me the most interesting (narrowly trumping the 'undead have souls' revelation) is the most intimate relationship between soul and level, soul and HD, soul and XP, in short the association between the soul and the power of an individual. It is an often used metaphor, that a wizard 'expends a substantial part of his power' or somesuch, when he casts spells with an XP component. Similar is the crafting of magic items - he imbues some of his own power into an item. Soul-draining undead inflict negative levels. And trying to trap a soul within a receptacle that is too small to contain the soul's power (insufficient kgp/HD) fails spectacularily. Why not just say, that the soul is the in-game representation of XP then? Seriously, what's wrong with that?

 

[Dakkareth]

(Recap: I'm trying to look *only* at what is said in the core rules and make sense of it. So far I have outlined the matters to consider, gathered some quotes and pointed out interesting or contradictory elements. Please bear with me, while I attempt an interpretation - you're free to disagree and draw your own conclusions of course.)


I'm not sure, whether I'm being serious, but I'm going to propose not two, not three, not nine, but four parts, that make up a normal (intelligent, living Prime Material) individual.

First there's the body, which is rather straight-forward. A physical thing, associated with the attributes of physicality: strength, mobility, hardiness. Most beings have one and use it to interact with the physical world.

Then there's the life-force. Together with the physical body it makes up, what most people simply call 'the (living) body'. Without life-force you're dead or a construct. Even undead are possessed of a certain kind of life-force, but one that consists of negative energy instead of positive.

The spirit is that elusive part of you, that makes rational decisions and maintains memories. It's almost inseparable from the soul, except for unusual circumstances (like death). With growing experience comes greater flexibility and control; the spirit focuses the power of the soul into reality, through magic or more directly as psionics.

Finally there's the soul, which is the most important of all. It is the sum of all emotions, decisions, morals. No matter how depraved you are, you still possess a soul, even if it's twisted and 'evil'. But the soul is more than just that: It binds together all parts that make up an individual and makes it more than just their sum. It is the spark of primal magic, the touch of divinity, the one thing that makes sentient life possible and probably much more. The soul makes it possible to act, affect other things, is power.
Experience, wisdom, learning and decisions all strengthen the soul, allow it to grow and with it the power of the individual. Like a tree this growth can be straight, twisted or somewhere in between - it matters not in regards to the power inherent in it. Evil tendencies grow stronger with every choice for evil, the soul becomes more extreme in its alignment and strength. And of course the choice is easier each time, which explains, why goodness is so hard to attain and evil so rewarding ...

Directly connected to the strength of the soul is the strength of the other parts. A strong soul binding the four aspects together lends health to the body, vitality to the life-force and will as well as dedication to the spirit. Also in colloquial language, most people and even learned sages treat body and life-force as the same, calling it the body, while calling soul and spirit together 'the soul'. Naturally this leads to all kinds of confusion ...

Strength of the soul, raw and unformed power, can take many different forms depending on the individual's morals and inclinations - for some it's the tapping of vast magic within the self, for others it's titanic feats of combat and leadership and for yet others it's the doing of the nearly impossible, vanishing from plain sight through sheer ability or convincing lesser souls of obvious falsehoods.

When a magic user casts an especially powerful spell, it takes a toll on his soul. In most cases it's tolerable and only imposes a limit on the magic a caster can invoke within a certain time, but sometimes the sorcery shaped by a wizard is simply too great and to control it the caster draws strength directly from his soul, weakening it until he can recoup the loss (though most of the time the difference is barely noticeable by others).

Certain undead with their touch (and spells emulating them) take life-force and soul energy from their victim (con & level loss). The consequences are dire as target's power is much reduced, no matter the nature of its display (magic, martial ability, etc). Even harsher is the transition from live to death and back: Only the greatest of magics can prevent permanent damage to the soul. As with draining attacks, the victim doesn't *forget* his spells, or *unlearn* his techniques, he is simply unable to use them as long as he lacks the power to do so.

When a wizard traps the soul of another being, he keeps the different parts together (body, soul, life-force and spirit are all trapped within the gem). A demi-lich's attack however consumes all aspects of the individual *except* the body, which without animating life-force and a soul to give it meaning is just a mess of material elements.

Using astral projection is dangerous, because it separates that, which shouldn't be separated. Or rather it *almost* separates. The body is left behind, the spirit cast forth into the astral; life-force and soul remain as link between them, allowing them to remain a living individual - when this link is severed, the different aspects are separated and cannot continue to exist, the wizard dies. Using magic jar however the much lesser distance between the parts (a few miles as opposed to several planes) makes the link strong enough, so silver swords can't sever the tie. If the caster is careless, it may still kill him, though ...
-------------

Sooo ... it's late and my thoughts run in circles. Maybe I oversaw some vital detail, maybe I put too much of my own thoughts into what's supposed to be a conclusion from the evidence of the books, maybe I'm just not getting it. Whatever, I hope my efforts have some use to you - I have tried.

-Dakkareth, I spent way too much time on this

 

[Tinker Gnome]

My idea was ignored? Now I am a very sad person.

 

[Quickleaf]

The 9-Part Egyptian Soul

I run an Egyptian-fantasy campaign and we use a traditional ancient Egyptian concept of containing a multi-part being. In the Egyptian school of thought, one person could have multiple afterlives, as each different portion of their being had its own existence after death (provided they survived judgment before Osiris).
Also, remember that this multi-part soul is the product of a people who believed there was no guarantee they would actually reach the afterlife. Desctruction of their names, physical bodies, or statues made in their image could kill the corresponding parts of the soul! Spells, prayers, rituals, and expensive burials could help, but ultimately you weren't guaranteed heaven. If you did reach the Land of the West - heaven - you found it much the same as your current life, only better. the joys were amplified and the pains reduced.

Yab/Ab/Ib (Heart) - Source of good and evil within a person; sort of a light and shadow nature both. The seat of moral awareness, and thought that could leave the body if a spiritualist had strong enough will (or if it was taken from you, i.e. losing the ability to see right from wrong). It was eaten by the demon Ammait if the deceased failed the judgment of the dead. If they passed, the heart went on to live with the gods after death.

Akhu (Transfigured/Immortal Ancestor) - Also called "The Shining Ones." The radiant and shining self made up of intellect, deep intentions, and will of the deceased. After death, dwells in the Sahu to ascend to the heavens and live with the gods among the stars. Akhu came into being after the deceased was judged, and was created by a merging of the Ka and Ba. (So, if the devourer Ammait ate you or you were reincarnated, your Akhu didn't manifest)

Ba (Manifestation) - A human-headed bird that represented a non-physical soul - all those qualities that make up our personality. Both gods and humans have a Ba. The Ba's main function is to make it possible for the deceased to leave his tomb and travel to the underworld. Like the Ka, the Ba requires food and drink in the form of offerings to stay alive. The Ba is able to take any form it chose. It has to reunite with the deceased every night in order to join with the Ka to become the Akhu (Immortal Ancestor).

Khat (Physical Body) - The physical outward form that could decay after death. For the other parts to have a chance of life after death it had to be properly cared for after death via mummification (even simple non-expensive varieties were considered acceptable). IMC, the body really, really helps the soul after death (though it isn't 100% necessary), as proper rituals done on the body help the soul to breath, think, and experience the underworld and even the living world (which oftens seems strange at first to the recently dead.

Ka (Sustaining Double) - An etheric double that lingers on in the tomb, inhabiting the body or a specially crafted ushabti statue. The Ka requires food and drink in the form of offerings to stay alive. Highly evolved spiritualists are able to move their ka independent of their body; this ability is usually restricted to people who have died or to sleeping people during their dreams. The Ka could manifest itself as a ghost even while the person was alive! It haunted those who wronged it, as a traditional western ghost would. The Ka represented the creative power in any being. Animals, plants, water, even stones had their own ka.

Khaibit/Shwt (Shadow) - Staying near the Ba, the shadow ate funerary offerings. It was able to detach itself from the body and travel at will at great speed. Certain dark magic could steal it from you. The Khaibit represents your ability to leave a lasting impression on the world around you. Those without a shadow leave no lasting legacy and are quickly forgotten. It was said those who protected their shadow were in turn protected by it from the burning sun or from bad luck.

Ren (True Name) - The magical part of a person that offered either empowerment or destruction. It was the perfect expression of the person/thing in question (everything had a true name). A newborn child had to receive a true name quickly, or its growth would be stunted. If the name was forgotten or obliterated, the person's soul could fade away, or (if still alive) they would fall to financial ruin. Alternately if someone learned your true name, they gained absolute power over you (thus nicknames were used in ancient Egypt). A well guarded name, however, offered great magic power to its bearer.

Sahu (Spirit-form) - An incorruptible spiritual body that comes into being after the physical body dies. It appears from the body after the judgment of the dead is passed successfully. Living in the heavens, the sahu has all the mental and spiritual abilities of a living body. It is an imprint of the individual's "soul purpose" and was related to the idea of destiny. Those egyptians who believed in reincarnation maintained the Sahu carried the core of the individual into various incarnations.

Sekhem (Life-force/Might) - The aggressive part of a person that provided healing and willpower. It was the connection between the mortal and the gods manifested in the shared breath. The breath was considered to be divine and continuously flowing. Its powers were those of transformation: it made darkness into light and Though the breath stopped after death, it went on to live in heaven with the Akhu.

NOTE: The Sekhem and Akhu were added by E.A. Wallis Budge, and may not have been part of the traditional Egyptian concept of the soul.

Whew! And that was the short version.

 

[Algolei]

I run an Egyptian-fantasy campaign and we use a traditional ancient Egyptian concept of containing a multi-part being. In the Egyptian school of thought, one person could have multiple afterlives, as each different portion of their being had its own existence after death (provided they survived judgment before Osiris).

Hey, cool, I was just googling up on this stuff. Thanks!

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

RE: Dakkareth...

Interesting, and I think closer to rules-speak.. which I think is the goal here

To refine it further into rule-speak...

Body {B} = STR & DEX

Life Force {L} = CON

Spirit {M for mind} = INT

Soul {S} = WIS & XP & Alignment
________
character = B + L + M + S
Construct = B + majically created M
Mindless Undead = B + S
Intellligent Undead = B + M + S

Using this, the loss of any given aspect can be ruled by reducing the stat to zero... ?

Hows that?

 

[Dakkareth]

Mindless Undead = B + L (negative)
Intelligent Undead = (B) + L (negative) + M + S

Only intelligent undead have souls (see the quote above) and they do have a life-force, although it's powered by negative energy. Indeed the only difference between a living wizard and a lich is that the one is powered by positive and the other by negative energy.

Using this, the loss of any given aspect can be ruled by reducing the stat to zero... ?

I like the association with the stats, you proposed - quite simple and easy to remember. It works fine for Body, Life-force and Mind/Spirit - even if you can survive without body, you are still helpless and paralyzed, without life-force you're simply dead and without a mind you are practically a vegetable.

For loss of the soul it has to be adjusted somewhat, if we want to keep the 'man alive but without a soul' an option. Setting alignment to Total Neutral (as in 'I don't care') looks good, but reducing WIS to 0 would render the character comatose. How about setting it to 1? The -5 penality to will saves nicely represents the 'no resistance to compulsions' idea. As for the XP I'd say, a character without a soul stops gaining experience and suffers steady level drain (one level per day? per week?). The levels lost could be restored by magic (restoration+) or maybe a custom spell could prevent this loss for its duration entirely.

[EDIT: Another infliction could be reducing the character's SR. Spell resistance seems to be associated with the soul (see quote above) and it fits nicely.]

The consequence would be that a character without a soul is severely hampered and is likely to die quickly, if he has no magic available. Powerful magic can keep him alive for a time, though. If the DM is being nice (or not a jerk, if the loss of the PC's soul was unavoidable), he could still track the XP the character would have gotten and give it out, after the soul has been restored (maybe give double experience until the PC has caught up). Another option would be to treat it as a return from death and have the character lose a level without chance of recovery. Personally I'd use both together.

---------

Mmhhh, seems like a good treatment to me. Depending on the party's level you can adjust the speed of the level loss (one per week, if a restoration is hard to come by, one per day if the cleric has that spell readily available, maybe one level per hour if you're feeling vindicative and the party is throwing miracles about like popcorn) and while the loss of one's soul is certainly very dangerous and consequence-ladden, it's not the end of all things.