Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
Listening to the bard creation livestream, Kelsey comes down against non-martials having access to longswords, which makes sense -- although it's a rule I may have broken. Time to go back and check my classes!
OSR Let's make Shadowdark classes!
deganawida
Legend
Oh hey that’s right she’s in CA and I’m in CA until I fly back tomorrow, so this is a reasonable time for me to actually get to watch it.
Jet lag? Pffft. Waaaaay past that now.
Jet lag? Pffft. Waaaaay past that now.
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
Las Vegas, actually. But close enough, timezone-wise!
deganawida
Legend
As my Grandpa would say, “Close enough for government work!”
Oo! What do I win?
kapars
Adventurer
Having done the math it looks like a Level 10 fighter attacking with a d12 weapon will have:
+12 to attack (+6 weapon master, +4 from STR, + 2 from 3-6 talent
They will have an average of 14.5 damage:
6.5 from d12 weapon
+6 from weapon mastery
+2 from 3-6 talent roll
against a level 10 Chimaera with 16 AC they have a 85% chance to hit for 12.325 damage per round.
In comparison a Ranger would have a +6 to attack and 8.5 average damage if they roll a d12 weapon and the 3-6 talent twice. That’s a 55% chance to hit the Chimaera doing merely 4.675 damage per round.
They are basically reliant on using Foebane and assuming they have it in place before combat they are doing 8.5 ish with that d12 weapon rolling d12 with advantage for 10.5 average damage and hitting at just about 80% for a damage per round of 8.4
This gives them between 38% and 68% of the Fighters weapon combat performance. I’ll leave it up to others to decide if the rest of their kit makes up for it, but the fact that it’s this swingy suggest variable play experiences.
Just wanted to leave some benchmarks here for designing other classes
+12 to attack (+6 weapon master, +4 from STR, + 2 from 3-6 talent
They will have an average of 14.5 damage:
6.5 from d12 weapon
+6 from weapon mastery
+2 from 3-6 talent roll
against a level 10 Chimaera with 16 AC they have a 85% chance to hit for 12.325 damage per round.
In comparison a Ranger would have a +6 to attack and 8.5 average damage if they roll a d12 weapon and the 3-6 talent twice. That’s a 55% chance to hit the Chimaera doing merely 4.675 damage per round.
They are basically reliant on using Foebane and assuming they have it in place before combat they are doing 8.5 ish with that d12 weapon rolling d12 with advantage for 10.5 average damage and hitting at just about 80% for a damage per round of 8.4
This gives them between 38% and 68% of the Fighters weapon combat performance. I’ll leave it up to others to decide if the rest of their kit makes up for it, but the fact that it’s this swingy suggest variable play experiences.
Just wanted to leave some benchmarks here for designing other classes
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
I definitely think Kelsey is OK with having everything not core be a little less great than the core four classes. The most robust one, from eyeballing it, appears to be the Pit Fighter, but after the first few levels, Fighter is much better.
I think that's probably the right way to strike the balance -- these other classes can be fun in specific circumstances, but no one should ever feel like they're better off using a Cursed Scroll or other supplemental class (Ranger and Bard are apparently going to be in an upcoming Cursed Scroll) rather than a core class.
I think that's probably the right way to strike the balance -- these other classes can be fun in specific circumstances, but no one should ever feel like they're better off using a Cursed Scroll or other supplemental class (Ranger and Bard are apparently going to be in an upcoming Cursed Scroll) rather than a core class.
kapars
Adventurer
Kelsey raised some good points in the Discord about the Ranger being more durable due to DEX AC potion and healing potion so here are some numbers for that and how they affect how you should see damage numbers:
Let’s run some math on the incoming Chimera damage in the same scenario:
36 (4x9) rend damage average and 14 (3.5 x 4) fire damage.
Ranger with AC 17 (chain + DEX) / DEX +4, CON+2, INT+1:
47 hp (4.5x10 + 2)
18 rend damage average with 50% chance to be hit
7 fire damage average with 50% chance to make 15 DEX check
25 damage per turn, goes down in 1.88 rounds (without potion)
Fighter with AC15 (plate), STR 18, DEX 10, 14 CON
47 hp, same as Ranger
23.4 hp from taking 65% of Rend
10.5 from failing 75% of DEX15 checks
33.9 incoming damage going down in 1.39 rounds
Healing potion is 26 hp with 35% chance to have it with INT + 1 giving 9.1 extra effective hp to Ranger for 56.1 now going down in 2.24 rounds.
Ranger survives 1.6 times as long as Fighter and can deal 68% of damage when prepared with potion of healing and Foe bane. 1.09 net output of Fighter when prepared in terms of damage before down, assuming melee on both
TLDR; If prepared the Ranger can outtank and eventually outdamage Fighter.
However: Fighter could also roll +1 to AC and force a Morale check sooner with its high damage output
Let’s run some math on the incoming Chimera damage in the same scenario:
36 (4x9) rend damage average and 14 (3.5 x 4) fire damage.
Ranger with AC 17 (chain + DEX) / DEX +4, CON+2, INT+1:
47 hp (4.5x10 + 2)
18 rend damage average with 50% chance to be hit
7 fire damage average with 50% chance to make 15 DEX check
25 damage per turn, goes down in 1.88 rounds (without potion)
Fighter with AC15 (plate), STR 18, DEX 10, 14 CON
47 hp, same as Ranger
23.4 hp from taking 65% of Rend
10.5 from failing 75% of DEX15 checks
33.9 incoming damage going down in 1.39 rounds
Healing potion is 26 hp with 35% chance to have it with INT + 1 giving 9.1 extra effective hp to Ranger for 56.1 now going down in 2.24 rounds.
Ranger survives 1.6 times as long as Fighter and can deal 68% of damage when prepared with potion of healing and Foe bane. 1.09 net output of Fighter when prepared in terms of damage before down, assuming melee on both
TLDR; If prepared the Ranger can outtank and eventually outdamage Fighter.
However: Fighter could also roll +1 to AC and force a Morale check sooner with its high damage output
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