Let's Talk About Character Resources To Power Abilities

[Tigris]

Sorry for the many quotes and being a bit late, but I think there are so many interesting discussion points in this thread.

The one I hate is the 13th age recovery/recharge where its based on number of encounters instead of something like a day or a rest.

Well this is one of the phew ways how you can make different ressource systems balanced among one another. Also the idea is in 13th age that you do make it sense in the narrative. When an arc is over, you have time to actually relax and rest.

It puts a bit more work on the table for GM (and players) to make it work in the narrative, but for me its still better than having martial classes be overshadowed by casters because of 1 adventure days.

Another question near and dear to my developer heart.

I think Cypher does a neat thing here by making it a loot-crate game. Where you have slots, you can overflow the slots at a risk. And instead of refreshing with same spells you adventure to get more spells to replace the ones you used, which may end up being same or totally different. I thin Numenera does the loot play better than any rpg ever made. it feeeeeel like I want to go explore to crack open chests to get more cyphers... you just need a GM who understands that and puts the loot there, can't run it like D&D and starve players of goodies...

I do like the idea of Cyphers, I think just one small thing I would change (with this mechanic, but also seen in other systems) is that you have some "overflow protection". Like if you get a 4th cypher, you can hold it for a limited time (until the next encounter), so this allows to make sure never cyphers are completely wasted, even if players are quite conservative in using them.

I think having active items you really want to use does make looting a lot more interesting than finding gold...

In my implementation of magic in my BRP game, we have mana points BUT they are only an expression of extra will, so each spell does not require their use at all. but If you want to affect more targets, more damage or do whatever 'more' then you can spend mana to do so. That is a big hit with players as it requires little to no bean counting but does offer a way to "push" in case that's your jam.

I like this mechanic also a lot with the Elementalist Sorcerer in 4E, the most simple caster there. You just have at wills, but you can sometimes power them up. I guess your version is more complex, but even in a really simple form I think its cool, and it definitly has a lot of potential. (Ok the psionic power points in 4E also do a similar thing, but that version created too much repetition).

In my Final Fantasy 8 game, based on Cypher, we went with the FF8 way, so you Draw spells off monsters, and that was very fun! You can go farm monsters for spells or you can risk new encounters for new spells.

I love the blue mage mechanic, and with cypher and being limited its a really cool natural way to get one use powers! Cypher often has the problem of not so well fitting with other narratives but this is great!

The reason I don't like mechanics based primarily on resource attrition is that the decision-making is based on an unknown: should I spend this resource now, or save it for later? Which I suppose is a kind of strategy, but it's one based on meta-gaming, i.e. typical dungeon structure, the GM's tendencies, how much time is left in the session, etc. From the character's point of view, it is completely unknowable whether or not the resources are best used now or saved for later.

Well a session being over does not necessarily mean that it gives a rest, and as others said its kind of typical real life "on time" optimization problem. Of course its not for everyone.

Well you can make this work a bit different when using 13th age rules where you know exactly that after 4 encounters there is a rest. And you can have this in the narrative as the characters know their limits and will find a spot to rest up full after 4 encounters (but dont want to waste time before). This makes it more calculateable.

Spell slots, mana points, spell levels, give up a reaction to do a second full action, spend action points, etc etc etc =
What are all these things doing?
If we take them out, did we actually lose anything?

- When was the last time you spent/used up a resource in game and thought "Spending that really made the scene I roleplayed better!" (Asset like in Dune, or Plot Point like in Cortex, or Spell Slot like in D&D, Vitae in vampire, etc, etc)

If you take them out you also take out that special feeling that things are rare and unique. And you lose a mechanic which helps making sure highlights are well distributed between different players.

Like if every player has 1 really strong one off ability (like in Beacon), then you have a really good chance that each character in an arc gets 1 really cool highlight.

Also its not pure roleplaying, its a roleplaying game, so having good game mechanics help to make the game better.

Ok, so I keep thinking about "cards" and I could see an RPG in which cards replace the character sheet, instead of being in addition to a character sheet. So your hand of cards is your character sheet. Not exactly like M:tG because you lay all of your cards out on the table at once. So maybe it's more like Munchkin, but....more SERIOUS dammit!

So some cards, like your kin, are just core to your character. Others, like maybe some gear, you keep until you lose them. And some are abilities you have. Some of those abilities are the ones that, when you use them, you flip over, and on the back are the rules for when you can flip them face up again. Which could be the aforementioned "random cool down", or it could be "when combat is over", or really any other conditions.

I think I'd want it to be not a lot of cards....maybe a dozen or fifteen max...so they can be laid out in a few rows and columns without spreading out too far. And I wouldn't want to have separate cards for every item in inventory: maybe there are some different "backpack" cards to choose from, each with a different list of items.


Ok, sure, it's not a perfect simulation of random opportunity, but it still means that you don't always have it when you want it, without having to track "charges".



I mean, that sounds awesome to me, too, but I also don't know how to track something like that unless it's a computer game.

Gloomhaven (the RPG inspired boardgame) has characters being just cards. The Gloomhaven RPG also wanted to do that, but it failed and introduced 6 stats, but still the character sheet is just 6 stats + HP, so can be small. And all the things you can do is on cards.

 

[payn]

How do you fee about the inclusion of these sort of resources in TTRPGs? Are there alternatives that you prefer (time based cooldowns, for example)? Or do you prefer systems that don't include them at all (if you can do it, you can do it -- many modern supers games work this way)? Is there a middle ground or "why not both?" system you prefer?

Coming late, but better than never!

I like both systems that have resource management and those that dont. Typically, the resource RPGs are more crunchy and the management part leans heavily on playing the game side of RPG. For example, the adventuring day is an idea that you have a finite amount of time to face the challenges before you. Other RPGs aim for managing the encounter, which is whatever a single challenge happens to be. Finally, there are more narratively driven games that cut the bean counting down to as much abstraction as possible. In the latter sense, its to keep the game lite and move it forward on what folks want to focus on.

As I mentioned, I like both types. Where I think trouble brews is when the design has cheats out of how the system ought to work. See all the spell in a can stuff from 3E. Though, I also think trying to mix an adventure day with an encounters design is gonna be an issue. We see a lot of chat about this in 5E and PF2 the fantasy leaders in the RPG space.

What RPGs do these kinds of resources well, and which ones do it poorly? What RPGs manage to let PCs have cool powers without forcing players to count beans?

I think folks will often point to D&D as a bad example. I think it suffers from a few issues. The big one being its the first popular RPG out of the gate and has been around 50+ years. RPGs have evolved and D&D has a lot of legacy attached to it. Though, I think it also has some innovative ideas mixed in that might get tossed with the bathwater. Second, being the big daddy of RPGs, D&D is tasked with doing a lot of things for a lot of people. That means the design is often taxed in ways that folks are gonna find specifically unsuitable. Thats the nature of a generally designed system.

For a system that I thinks works well in an mix of modern design with old school feel is Forbidden Lands. Its reliance on torches, waterskins, and food rations, but managed via supply dice is slick. It allows for both counting beans but doing so in a fast and efficient manner as to not slow the game down.

As usual, thank you for your participation and insights.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Well a session being over does not necessarily mean that it gives a rest, and as others said its kind of typical real life "on time" optimization problem. Of course its not for everyone.

Yes, and I hesitated before including the reference to "session" because at many tables that's not a meaningful designation. But for some it is.

Well you can make this work a bit different when using 13th age rules where you know exactly that after 4 encounters there is a rest. And you can have this in the narrative as the characters know their limits and will find a spot to rest up full after 4 encounters (but dont want to waste time before). This makes it more calculateable.

In my opinion "more calculable" is a bad thing.

 

[Tigris]

Yes, and I hesitated before including the reference to "session" because at many tables that's not a meaningful designation. But for some it is.



In my opinion "more calculable" is a bad thing.

Ah I thought your problem with the ressources over adventuring day is that its hard to calculate when its good to use X, thats why I suggested 13th age. Because in general what makes the long rest ressources interesting is that you cant calculate how the whole day goes and have to make decisions on when to spend ressources and when not.

But of course, if metagaming comes into it (as in predictable GMs etc.) then I agree this can become a problem.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Ah I thought your problem with the ressources over adventuring day is that its hard to calculate when its good to use X,

Not exactly. It's that I don't find that calculation to be interesting/engaging game play.

(Unless we're talking about it in a tactical, round-by-round sense. E.g., "You try to position the boss near that pit, and then it would be a good time for me to use my Shove ability.")

EDIT: In my opinion, the worst outcome is "I kept saving my Cool Thing for a more important moment, and then we took a long rest and I never actually used it." In my experience, that happens so much with Inspiration that people forget it's on the character sheet.

 

[RenleyRenfield]

...

EDIT: In my opinion, the worst outcome is "I kept saving my Cool Thing for a more important moment, and then we took a long rest and I never actually used it." In my experience, that happens so much with Inspiration that people forget it's on the character sheet.

100% this ^
I see this happen allllllll the time in systems that are not as good at "cycling" as well as they should be (metacurrency or character spend points or spell slots etc etc)

 

[Reynard]

EDIT: In my opinion, the worst outcome is "I kept saving my Cool Thing for a more important moment, and then we took a long rest and I never actually used it." In my experience, that happens so much with Inspiration that people forget it's on the character sheet.

Worse than "I died with 2 healing potions in my pocket"?

 

[Bill Zebub]

Worse than "I died with 2 healing potions in my pocket"?

Why would I have healing potions in my pocket? It's the Cleric's job to keep me up.

 

[Reynard]

Why would I have healing potions in my pocket? It's the Cleric's job to keep me up.

It may be that attitude that convinced her to let you die?

 

[Tigris]

I don't see how this is the "worst outcome". The party being killed is the worst outcome. If you are save and still had ressources to spare this means your party did greaa!



I dont see it as necessary to always use all abilities, else cool situational abilities would never be picked and never have a chance to shine.


Sure if abilities are never used, thats a problem (like with healing potions not being used), but sometimes you still have it after a hard day? Thats great! Makes the times you use it to full effect better.



Of course one can always try to improve existing mechanics. I see several possibilities to have less of this "feel bad" moment:

• Reward bonus XP to the party at the end of the day based on the number of unused ressources (if they had over X fights). (People do a mental fight or a fight in their dream, thinking/simulating how they could win with their unspent ressources).
• Abilities get empowered for the next encounter day if they were not used (but you lose this empowerment if you dont use it), this way you are more likely to alternate.
• Have an adventure day only end after all ressources are used up, so its a challenge to do as many encounters as possible before resting.
• Just in general have many situational powers (everyone), so its normal to not use all abilities, but grant bonus XP if they can be used efficiently (Gloomhaven bg does this!)