Let's Talk About Darkvision

[Pielorinho]

Well, I think that's quite a stretch: these deep-sea creatures have darkvision so that they can come up to the surface of the water, poke above the surface of the water, in caverns, and attack people near the surface of the water. The rest of the time, they fight blind, only this limitation isn't mentioned anywhere in the rules.

If you're happy with that, that's fine, but the evidence seems overwhelming to me that the designers intended darkvision to function underwater.

Daniel

 

[Quasqueton]

Not to make a point on anything, but just out of curiousity. . .

Supposed a room and everything in it is completely black, except for the lightbulb which gives light to see by. Can light-based vision ("normal vision") see and identify the walls and objects in the room?

Quasqueton

 

[Lamoni]

I still find it very odd how the restriction of 'can only see in black and white' has lead to 'can't see through water'. It seems like a lot of extra restrictions so that a lot of extra work has to be done in some situations when none of it is mentioned in the rules. Water creatures have darkvision... let's see if they can see in the dark water (reads description of darkvision) No restriction so yes they can.

Oh, and for the comment that they can only use it above water to snatch at the hobbits on land... if they are completely blind under water in the dark, how do they even make it to the edge... and assuming that they just feel their way along or swim across the surface... how do they then travel back home after they fed off of the hobbits? Wouldn't it be much simpler to follow the rules and make darkvision function the same as normal vision with the only exception being that no colors are distinguished?

 

[Lamoni]

Not to make a point on anything, but just out of curiousity. . .

Supposed a room and everything in it is completely black, except for the lightbulb which gives light to see by. Can light-based vision ("normal vision") see and identify the walls and objects in the room?

Quasqueton

That depends on your definition of completely black. If that means not reflecting any light, then no, you wouldn't see anything. If you just mean black as in the blackest paint you can find, then yes you would be able to identify all the walls and objects in the room just fine... well they would still be harder to make out than in a normal room, but it would be far from impossible to do so.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I still find it very odd how the restriction of 'can only see in black and white' has lead to 'can't see through water'.

That was just a guess I made, resulting from my understanding of darkvision, which, as you can tell by this thread, is hotly debated.

Basically, I don't think darkvision lets you read normal ink on normal paper, though it might be able to read embossed paper.

Given that, what other limitations does it suffer? In my mind, that makes it so that darkvision cannot see through glass - and, seriously, how many dwarven kingdoms are known for their glassblowing or beautiful ornamental windows? No, dwarves are known for their carving, their metalwork, and their stonework - the carving of jewelry often being described as "heavy." Heavy because, under my formulation of darkvision, it shows up better than lighter carving.

And if it can't see through glass, in my mind, that's reason enough that it cannot see through water. I'm not entirely sold on water, but I think it tends to make sense.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Oh, and for the comment that they can only use it above water to snatch at the hobbits on land... if they are completely blind under water in the dark, how do they even make it to the edge... and assuming that they just feel their way along or swim across the surface... how do they then travel back home after they fed off of the hobbits? Wouldn't it be much simpler to follow the rules and make darkvision function the same as normal vision with the only exception being that no colors are distinguished?

Yes, it would. Which is why the designers wrote it that way. But there's this odd urge among gamers to complicate...

I stand by my analysis...there is no reason to believe that darkvision would or would not be able to see underwater. No evidence at all is inherent in the mechanism, so we must either assume that since there's no prohibition it works fine (RAW) or decide that in our own campaigns it doesn't.

 

[Perun]

And in every book ever written about drow, they talk about how their wizards are looked at funny because they rely on candles. This includes the most recent set - The War of the Spider Queen.

Granted, novels are hardly rules canon, but still...

Exactly. That's why you can't use novels to support a theory. I don't know why Salvatore decided that drow still need to use light sources to read. My guess is because of continuity. Back in the days of 2e, when most of his Drizzt books were written, drow (along with a bunch of other races) used infravision. In fact, infravision (the ability to see heat sources) was very important to the Menzoberranzan drow, because they used it to track time -- that was one of the duties of the Gromph Baenre, the resident arch-wizard of the city, to cast some heat spell on that pillar (the name of which escapes me). The spell took 12 hours to reach the top pf the pillar, and another 12 to subside completely. Thus anyone with infravision who looked upon the pillar could read the approximate time of day.

Also, in the first Drizzt trilogy (where he talks about his childhood and growing up), he explicitly mentioned drow wizards using canldes. Because the rule-set at the time said so. Also, I don't know if Salvatore mentions it in the War of the Spider Queen, but infravision was spoiled by light sources. If you used light, you saw only as far as the light source allowed (unlike darkvision).

So, like I said, I suspect it's because of continuity. The rules, in no way, support this. One could argue such things based just on the description from the DMG (since that one doesn't use the phrase "just like normal sight"), but when darkvision descriptions form the dwarf and half-orc entry are tossed in the equation, along with the description of the darkvision spell (all of which I quoted in my previous posts), there's no doubt how the ability works in a default D&D game.

Like I said, your interpretation is interesting, and it might appeal to DMs and parties that prefer an added level of complexity in their games, but it's not supported by rules as written, nor by rules as intended. It's a house-rule, plain and simple.

Oh, and that stuff about krakens... That was simply hillarious. Sure, a creature that spends most of it's time in the depths of the ocean found it convenien tho evolve two (not one, but two!) means of sight that come in handy when its swimming on the surface, and no ability to see underwater, in it's natural environment.

You know, I have a feeling, and it's quite a big one after seeing the kraken reply, that you're having a tremendously good time watching us all trying to convince you heo darkvision is *realy* supposed to work... You got us there, you did.

Regards!

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well, I think that's quite a stretch: these deep-sea creatures have darkvision so that they can come up to the surface of the water, poke above the surface of the water, in caverns, and attack people near the surface of the water. The rest of the time, they fight blind, only this limitation isn't mentioned anywhere in the rules.

You'll note, of course, that "normal" undersea creatures, like sharks, squid, and whales do not have darkvision.

Instead, they have some combination of low-light vision, blindsense, or blindsight.

I think this more than adequately supports my point - the only sea creatures that have darkvision are those which are magical, intelligent, and have a tendency to surface and eat things.

 

[Pielorinho]

You're missing the point, Patryn. I'm not asking why whales don't have darkvision; I'm asking why krakens do. So far, the only scenario you've given me in which they can use their darkvision is when they lunge above the surface of the water in an underground cavern in order to attack creatures above the surface of the water. That's such a rare circumstance in most games, and surely such a rare circumstance in the life of a deep-sea creature like the kraken, that it's bizarre to me they'd have an entire sense whose only utility is in that circumstance.

Why don't any real-world animals in a D&D universe have darkvision? Because they're statting up real-world animals, and as such darkvision doesn't exist.

AFAIK, whales and sharks do most of their hunting at depths at which light penetrates; lowlight vision serves them fine. Deep-sea creatures in the real world are, AFAIK, usually either scavengers or (if they're predators) have bioluminescence, enabling them to find or attract their prey.

But again, the question isn't why whales don't have darkvision; the question is why krakens do. I just don't think your explanation is adequate. But if it makes you happy, then great. If I were you, I'd extend my houserule to giving krakens and other deepsea creatures blindsight or some other sense that takes the place of darkvision.

Daniel

 

[Shalewind]

You'll note, of course, that "normal" undersea creatures, like sharks, squid, and whales do not have darkvision.

Normal of course in the sense that these creatures generally are closer to the surface where, by nature, the water is lighter and visable light exists. Whereas creatures such as the kraken and our friendly sahaugin live on the sea floor where it is dark. Thus, they require dark vision to see. Darkvision is not proof against ink clouds and such, which I also believe is why some deep dwellers also have blindsense, and additional advantage.

I find it very difficult to believe that undersea creatures are unable to function effectively in their own environment. I can't imagine the game deisgners giving darkvision to scores of undersea creatures that live in the darkest parts of the ocean and rule that darkvision isn't usualable underwater.

D&D is about options, not restrictions. In all cases, rulings go toward, if it isn't restricted, it is allowed. I must follow that darkvision works underwater in my mind and campaigns. Now, house ruling is another matter. And if you want to use darkvision with restrictions, then great. I just don't think that is the intent or word of the core rules.