D&D 5E Lets Talk about Medium Armor

[Yaarel]

@Xeviat

I understand the challenge of bounded accuracy. Nevertheless, it is instructive to look at the ‘natural’ progression of armors.



+1 AC fabric (padded gambeson, leather jacket, or layered wool tunics) under other armors
+2 AC helmet − worn with other armors
+2 AC shield − occupies offhand

11 AC leather (hardened leather scale tunic or hardened leather plate cuirass)
12 AC leather suit (plus limb protection of hardened leather plate guards)

13 AC chain (chain tunic)
14 AC scale (scale tunic or brigandine cuirass)
15 AC plate (breastplate cuirass)

16 AC half plate suit (plate cuirass and limb plate guards)

17 AC chain suit (longsleeve chain tunic and leggings, or longcoat hauberk)
18 AC scale suit (scale tunic & splint limbs, scale interlocking chain, or brigandine on chain)
19 AC plate suit (plate cuirass and chain limbs with plate guards)

20 AC full plate suit (renaissance full-encasement in plate)



Notice, the full plate suit + its helmet + gambeson underneath + shield = 25 AC

In this case, the ‘natural’ bounds of bounded accuracy is between 0 and 25, not including any Dexterity.



The highest light armor would be:

leather suit + padded + helmet + max Dexterity = 20 AC

 

[gargoyleking]

@Xeviat

I understand the challenge of bounded accuracy. Nevertheless, it is instructive to look at the ‘natural’ progression of armors.



+1 AC padded (gambeson, layered wool tunics) − worn under other armors
+2 AC helmet − worn with other armors
+2 AC shield − occupies offhand

12 AC leather scale tunic or leather plate cuirass
13 AC leather suit (plus limb protection)

14 AC chain tunic
15 AC scale tunic or brigandine cuirass
16 AC plate cuirass

17 AC chain suit (chain longsleeve shirt and leggings, or chain longcoat hauberk)
18 AC scale suit (scale tunic and splint limbs, or scales interlocking rings, or brigandine over chain suit)
19 AC plate-chain suit (plate cuirass and chain limbs with plate guards)

20 AC plate suit (renaissance full-coverage plate armor)



Notice, the plate suit + its helmet + padded underneath + shield = 25 AC

In this case, the ‘natural’ bounds of bounded accuracy is between 0 and 25, not including any Dexterity.



The highest light armor would be:

leather suit + padded + helmet + max Dexterity = 21 AC

What system are you using for this? Because it's definitely not d&d 5e.

 

[Yaarel]

What system are you using for this? Because it's definitely not d&d 5e.

Reallife!

I ignore ring and hide because they are inferior versions of other armors.

I ignore studded because it is fictitious. A ‘leather suit’ including limb protection is reallife and comparable.

I emphasize the fact that padded armor is *normally* worn under other armors.

And the helmet is both optional and significant, so counted separately, similar to how a shield is counted separately.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Reallife!

I ignore ring and hide because they are inferior versions of other armors.

I ignore studded because it is fictitious. A ‘leather suit’ including limb protection is reallife and comparable.

I emphasize the fact that padded armor is *normally* worn under other armors.

And the helmet is both optional and significant, so counted separately, similar to how a shield is counted separately.

Padded armour was commonly used as, and was highly effective as, protection in its own right. It was generally used by early footmen and similar who wanted better protection than leather, but couldn't afford metal.

What do you impose as the disadvantage of wearing a helmet? Because if there is no real downside, then its not so optional.

 

[Yaarel]

Noting the relative effectiveness of reallife armors, suppose these are ‘medium’ armors.

13 AC chain (chain tunic) + maximum 4 Dexterity bonus
14 AC scale (scale tunic or brigandine cuirass) + maximum 3 Dexterity bonus
15 AC plate (breastplate cuirass) + maximum 2 Dexterity bonus
16 AC half plate suit (plate cuirass and limb plate guards) + maximum 1 Dexterity bonus

So, depending on available Dexterity bonuses, all of these medium armors are equivalent.

 

[Yaarel]

Padded armour was commonly used as, and was highly effective as, protection in its own right. It was generally used by early footmen and similar who wanted better protection than leather, but couldn't afford metal.

What do you impose as the disadvantage of wearing a helmet? Because if there is no real downside, then its not so optional.

Note, a padded gambeson can also be worn under hardened leather armor.



I impose no disincentive for a helmet. A helmet is something a person is ‘supposed’ to wear in battle.

However, I want there to be a disincentive for a shield. I consider it like medium armor that interferes with Dexterity. There are only so many backflips and somersaults one can do while carrying a heater shield!

I would like to see most shields allow max 2 Dex.

One might argue, the same be true for helmet. Maybe most helmets allow maximum 3 Dex?

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

AC 19 wasn't viable? Viable?

It was a poor choice of words. I mean competitive with what a strength paladin would have for AC. Not having a stealth penalty was a huge boon for the campaign but in many campaigns a paladin doesn’t focus on stealth so the disadvantage to checks is t much of a penalty.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Note, a padded gambeson can also be worn under hardened leather armor.

True, but your table seemed to imply that padded armour was something that was only worn under armour rather than being armour in its own right, as well as having a rather odd value compared realistically to the leather armours.

I impose no disincentive for a helmet. A helmet is something a person is ‘supposed’ to wear in battle.

So why not just assume that all suits of armour incorporate it and reduce the disruption to bounded accuracy?

However, I want there to be a disincentive for a shield. I consider it like medium armor that interferes with Dexterity. There are only so many backflips and somersaults one can do while carrying a heater shield!
I would like to see most shields allow max 2 Dex.

If I did that, I would consider upping the protection of a shield to a more realistic level. Until the advent of plate, in most cases armour was not your primary protection on the battlefield; it was just there as a backup to your shield.

 

[Fenris-77]

Hmm, yeah when the helmet isn't imposing any kind of penalty then it's really just a free +2 AC, which is odd (IMO, and at first glance) but at least balanced since it applies to all armor types evenly. Maybe a cap on mods to perception like current MA does to Dex? Not a huge penalty but it seem appropriate.

I like the stack there generally though. The numbers make sense, and my degrees in Medieval history like the gambeson under other armors a lot. If you wanted to play with granularity you could add a half or open helm that grants +1AC without the perception penalty, and a buckler sized shield that adds +1 AC without the suggested Dex modifiers (which I agree with for a full-sized shield).

I would also probably take a look at using arming time with a system this nuanced. You aren't throwing on a gambeson and plate as an action. But, you could probably go gambeson helm and shield pretty quickly which still gives some protection and also passes the laugh test for realism.

 

[Yaarel]

True, but your table seemed to imply that padded armour was something that was only worn under armour rather than being armour in its own right, as well as having a rather odd value compared realistically to the leather armours.

My intention was, the padded ‘fabric’ armor (including the gambeson) could be worn by itself, just like a helmet and a shield can be used by themselves.

Boiled hardened leather is reasonably effective. And there are many reallife examples of it, such as the Byzantine military, and various medieval armors.

How would you quantify the AC of padded and leather?

So why not just assume that all suits of armour incorporate it and reduce the disruption to bounded accuracy?

For example, half-plate might not include a gambeson.

I dont understand how the PH can say that padded armor interferes with stealth checks. But that mechanic is a reason to not automatically include it.

If I did that, I would consider upping the protection of a shield to a more realistic level. Until the advent of plate, in most cases armour was not your primary protection on the battlefield; it was just there as a backup to your shield.

Regarding shield, the following might be reasonable.

Light shield +2
Medium shield +3 (maximum +2 Dexterity)
Heavy shield +4 (no Dexterity)