Let's talk about "plot", "story", and "play to find out."

[zakael19]

it is in the results part of play that it gets writer's room-y. Deciding what that die result means in the fiction, since everyone has input and interest in how those things turn out.

I can’t deny your feeling and experience, but I don’t understand this based on the way the game is supposed to be run afaik. When the scoundrel (or whatever S&V calls a PC) declares an action where the GM adjudges risk, you handle Position and Effect. Ideally based on that, you know the space of how bad things might be & what you’ll get - ensuring that the players have a similar level of information about the fictional situation as the characters might have. Everything around that should represent the PCs capabilities coming into play via mechanics - “fiction first” and all that jazz.

Once a roll is made, the badness / goodness happens - Resistance represents your character squeaking through because of how awesome they are despite that (but it takes a toll).

 

[Reynard]

Conversely what if it is a session with no rolls but purely social roleplay and decison-making, Maybe the die is rolled a handful of times...do you consider that session @Reynard an exercise in story-making?

Social roleplay is still roleplay -- you are down in the game. What I am talking about to a level of removal or elevation above the play that turned me off. It has little to do with whether dice are rolled or not, except insofar that is when those moments were brought to the fore in FitD.

 

[Reynard]

Once a roll is made, the badness / goodness happens - Resistance represents your character squeaking through because of how awesome they are despite that (but it takes a toll).

Right, but when we were playing, this is where everyone got in on interpreting what that means in the fiction precisely, and how to use that to further the story we were trying to craft. That is the writer's room bit I am talking about.
I suspect that we were doing it wrong and that I would like S&V plenty if I ran it more trad.

 

[zakael19]

Right, but when we were playing, this is where everyone got in on interpreting what that means in the fiction precisely, and how to use that to further the story we were trying to craft. That is the writer's room bit I am talking about.
I suspect that we were doing it wrong and that I would like S&V plenty if I ran it more trad.

Gotcha! Ok. Cheers!

 

[Breaking Star Games]

I could see how Blades in the Dark (and most Forged in the Dark like Scum & Villainy) could feel like a Writer's Room especially around having the Players help the GM come up with an interesting Consequence and Devil's Bargain. Now, Players don't need to do that (my table didn't) and it leaves a lot of creative burden on the GM, which made me feel really burnt out at the end of the session (I definitely missed traditional PbtA Basic Moves pretty quickly). I believe the expansion Deep Cuts puts more responsibility on the Players to make Level 1 Harm cause penalties and to come up with the Devil's Bargains, so in that way, you have to be pulled from Actor Stance.

I think the Position and Effect part work fine for me without pulling me too much out of character because many games work better with that kind of expectations alignment and use similar discussion. Mythic Bastionland has the Intent, Leverage, Impact discussion.

I actually felt most sharply is the XP Triggers in Forged in the Dark for pulling you out of Actor Stance and it's a constant pressure. This puts the pressure on the Player to come up with their own struggling with their Vice and Trauma, so they are constantly thinking about moments to do it. So, it can't really work in Actor Stance. And you are also kind of forcing bits from your backstory into the game.

 

[TwoSix]

Right, but when we were playing, this is where everyone got in on interpreting what that means in the fiction precisely, and how to use that to further the story we were trying to craft. That is the writer's room bit I am talking about.
I suspect that we were doing it wrong and that I would like S&V plenty if I ran it more trad.

Aesthetic preferences are what they are, of course. But speaking just for myself, those moments of collaboration, where everyone is invested and participating in the fate of one character, are some of my favorite aspects of play.

But, even in trad games like D&D, I've realized over the years that I prefer playing at a bit of a remove from my character. I enjoy steering my characters into drama and conflict much more than I enjoy trying to play them "faithfully" to their concept. My goal in play is always to see my characters challenged, grow, and change.

 

[Umbran]

I suspect that we were doing it wrong and that I would like S&V plenty if I ran it more trad.

Maybe not "wrong", per se. But maybe needed some practice? It is a skill like every other player skill - it takes some time to master it.

A group choosing a narrative result can be slow and awkward when the group isn't used to it yet. Folks haven't built up intuition around which decisions they really want to have input on, and so they can get anxious and nitpicky on each and every one.

 

[zakael19]

I could see how Blades in the Dark (and most Forged in the Dark like Scum & Villainy) could feel like a Writer's Room especially around having the Players help the GM come up with an interesting Consequence and Devil's Bargain. Now, Players don't need to do that (my table didn't) and it leaves a lot of creative burden on the GM, which made me feel really burnt out at the end of the session (I definitely missed traditional PbtA Basic Moves pretty quickly). I believe the expansion Deep Cuts puts more responsibility on the Players to make Level 1 Harm cause penalties and to come up with the Devil's Bargains, so in that way, you have to be pulled from Actor Stance.

I think the Position and Effect part work fine for me without pulling me too much out of character because many games work better with that kind of expectations alignment and use similar discussion. Mythic Bastionland has the Intent, Leverage, Impact discussion.

I actually felt most sharply is the XP Triggers in Forged in the Dark for pulling you out of Actor Stance and it's a constant pressure. This puts the pressure on the Player to come up with their own struggling with their Vice and Trauma, so they are constantly thinking about moments to do it. So, it can't really work in Actor Stance. And you are also kind of forcing bits from your backstory into the game.

“Defy Danger/act under fire: the game” is missing Basic Moves?

 

[Artamo]

I found FitD (via Scum and Villainy) to feel a little too much like a "writer's room" -- that is, when playing we (as a group) were actively working to interpret results and narrate things that would make the "coolest story" rather than "what my character would do" or some sort of verisimilitude driven outcome. That is not necessarily bad if that is what you are aiming for, but I bounced off of it. And I am not an "immersion" gamer or anything. But it still was a step too far removed for me.

Wow, I had the exact same feeling playing Scum and Villany. I chalked it up more to our GM’s style of play. I don’t think he was particularly nimble coming up with a narrative flow based on complications and it often felt like the story was being democratized, which should be a good thing in theory, but in practice it included a lot of people giving “Well, uh…maybe that means I shot my laser blaster and it hit, but ricocheted and hit something important” type complications. It felt disjointed to me. We tried a couple other FitD games and had the same result. I just don’t think it was working for our playstyle.

 

[Blue]

Let me restate: for a game to specifically provide for telling a story in play, it must have mechanics that enforce that playstyle. What do those games do to do that? What player choices or actions are curtailed or prohibited, if any?

No, it doesn't. I have made up stories for my kids without rules. Story are inherent in how we communicate in the type of experience than an RPG engenders. A particular system may have rules for it, but not having rules does not mean it can not tell a story, just like not telling us the particular motions of the hand and wrist about how to roll a die doesn't mean it can't use dice. There are things we know and bring to it.

Also, your distinction about "in play" also is misguiding you. A great many RPGs have GM advice that includes plenty that goes along story components, and that's things you see in both long-term and session prep.

Basically I not only disagree with this but feel like the narrow focus to only in-play may blind someone to the copious amount of GM guidance in RPG rulebooks that does provide story DNA.