Let's talk about "plot", "story", and "play to find out."

I would consider playing in an RPG session the equivalent of watching a movie or reading a book. It's how I "consume" the story generated by the process of gameplay, and I find it more entertaining to receive the story that way than to read or to hear a recounting of the transcript of play after the fact.
I agree with this. I enjoy GMing, or playing, a RPG session - generally I enjoy it a lot! And a significant part of my enjoyment is seeing what interesting stuff happens to these people and also seeing what interesting stuff these people do.

But I don't think I would get much pleasure from, say, watching a video replay of one of my sessions. It would be a bit Warhol-esque.
 

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I agree with this. I enjoy GMing, or playing, a RPG session - generally I enjoy it a lot! And a significant part of my enjoyment is seeing what interesting stuff happens to these people and also seeing what interesting stuff these people do.

But I don't think I would get much pleasure from, say, watching a video replay of one of my sessions. It would be a bit Warhol-esque.

I’m way to in the moment and processing a ton of mental stuff when I GM to really keep tabs of how everything is coming together (it’s a lot of bandwidth to visualize everything happening in the fiction!), but I’ve been told by some players that they wish we recorded some of our sessions because they’re telling a really compelling story.

So that’s cool I guess.
 

Perhaps we should take a closer look at what actually happens at the table when we play RPGs.

<snip>

The basic unit of RPG play is what I'm going call the situation (as opposed to scene, which has more baggage than I'd like, descriptive as it is). So the situation begins with the GM who provides the players with the necessary information to explain the current state of affairs, mostly in the form of evocative description. This might be bolstered by the players asking question to clarify or expand on the information. Then the players have to decide what to do - they must act. But how do they decide?

Obviously, a big part of that decision is framed by the GMs description and clarification, but that's only a part. Another part of player decision making is informed by their understanding of the setting and genre of the game, and this part is based on experience. In addition to setting and genre, the players might also act based on context clues within the GMs description - for example what the GMs spends time detailing vs the other, fuzzier and less well realized elements. In addition to all this up front stuff is that very human story telling drive - they fill in bits here or there, make unstated connections and inferences, and generally weld the bits together. These merged elements form the basis of their understanding of the situation and their decision is based on this new understanding. But they don't actually act, they state their intention to act, a desire to change the situation in one or more ways.

The situation now passes back to the GM who takes both his initial description, and the actions description of the player, and feeds it through the heuristic of the rules (to decide about die rolls etc). The GM then describes a new state of affairs that include the player actions and the consequences of those actions. Newly reframed, the situation is handed to a new player and we begin again.
I feel that this description of play is foregrounding an approach to play that is "no myth" or "shared myth", but also somewhat GM-driven.

When it comes to the initial state of affairs, how is that established? Does the GM read (or paraphrase) from their notes? Or do they extrapolate a description from their map-and-key? Or do they pick up on some player decision in the building of their PC - say, the player's authorship of a Belief or a Best Interest - and riff on that in some fashion? These are pretty different ways of getting a RPG session going, and produce pretty different play experiences, that are also going to be pretty different in how "story" results from them.

When it comes to "necessary information", what does that include? Does the GM tell the players why their PCs are motivated to care about this situation? Or is the PC motivation implicit in the way the game is set up (eg in classic D&D, characters want treasure because players want XP)? Or does the player provide the motivation? If the last-most, what is the order of operations between the player authoring a character motivation and the GM authoring an initial situation? Reversing the order of operations radically changes the play experience.

Another aspect of "necessary information" is what the GM describes. And this is very different across different approaches to RPGing. In classic D&D, the GM describes architecture and some furnishings. Anything else is colour; and a lot of potential colour is left undescribed (eg it's pretty rare, in my experience, in classic D&D play, to try and describe the patterns in stone walls, or even the sort of stone the walls are made of; or the cut of a NPC's clothes; or the shape of a NPC's nose: whereas these are all things it would be pretty common to describe in a novel dealing with similar subject matter). And in classic D&D play, the GM is also, to an extent, hoarding information - the players are expected to work to get it. Whereas in some other games the is typically trying to shovel information out the door, because play is not at all about investigation or exploration, but about evaluation and response (Vincent Baker talks about this in DitV; and I'm thinking also of my own experience of Prince Valiant).

When it comes to describing what happens next, it's not always the GM feeding things through heuristics of the rules: eg in Burning Wheel, if a roll succeeds then the player's description of what they were hoping that their PC would achieve establishes the new state of affairs. And in map-and-key play, the GM typically doesn't feed through heuristics of the rules, but rather consults their map and key - so the phenomenology of play includes a lot of the GM looks down, consults their papers, and then looks up and says what happens, or what the PCs see. And there is non-dungeon-crawling play, and even non-map-and-key play, where a lot of the time the GM looks at their notes to determine what happens next.

I think there some solid reasons why the idea that in RPG play a story is being told hangs around as it does. You have a group of people exploring a shared imaginary space and taking turns deciding (to some extent) what happens next. You also have characters (often heroes and villains no less), and even something that looks a lot like scenes that play out in linear fashion. That all looks a lot like a story. But I don't think those similarities make it so. Perhaps some of the difference might be covered by the difference between story and story telling. The latter might be closer to the truth of what happens at the table. I'll come back to that idea.

The appeal to plot, and its presence or absence often appears in these conversations. We do indeed have some types of RPG play that have a lot of 'plot' preloaded into the GMs prep, and we have others where nothing or only the faintest sketch sits premade. That suggests to me that the activity of roleplaying isn't dependent on pre-plotting (to any extent) but that the activity can support it to some extent. I say to some extent because, first, I feel it's pretty plain that in instances where the GM uses a lot of force to keep the players inside the tracks of the pre-plotted prep that the resulting gameplay is often unsatisfying for some or all of the players involved. Second, I think the sheer number of games that have been designed specifically in part to eliminate this idea of pre-prepped plot suggest that rather a lot of players don't much care for the idea. That said, it's still a very popular style of game. The important point is that while it can be used, it's not necessary.

Admittedly there is a whole lot of nuance between no-prep and massive prep. Things like fronts, or even adventure hooks, are at least plot-ish to some extent. So where does that leave us? I think that actual RPG play contains some story elements but that doesn't actually get us to 'story' proper. So RPG play might be described as similar to story-telling, but not quite the same as even there the participants in collaborative story telling are using their understanding of other stories to craft their elements in turn, but I think it's a stretch to say that RPG players are doing that same thing.
I agree with you that it move from "shared imagined space" to "story" is a common one. But I think it's a bit of a non sequitur: because telling stories together is only one way to establish a shared imagined space.

For instance, in a high school physics classroom, the teacher tells the students to imagine such-and-such a mass sitting on a slope of such-and-such an incline and such-and-such a length. Ignoring friction, and treating the mass as a point, how long does the mass take to slide to the bottom? Of course this can be solved purely mathematically: but part of the goal of these sorts of exercises is also to cultivate, in the students, a "physical imagination" which isn't just about being able to perform the calculations but also about being able to make sense of, and correlate, actual behaviours and properties of actual things.

And there can be similar sorts of non-story-related shared imagined spaces that aren't defined or explained primarily by reference to mathematics. Eg suppose you found yourself having to cross a fast-running river of such-and-such a width, and had nothing but <this list of stuff>, how might you go about doing it? And what difference would it make if you had to do it in a hurry because your friend has been bitten by a snake, and so you need to get medical help ASAP?

That sort of exercise gets closer to some forms of wargaming (free kriegsspiel-esque ones), and I think is also closer to the spirit of classic D&D as that is set out by Gygax in his rulebooks. The story aspects are more like colour and trappings placed over the solving of imaginary problems. And this point is not just about the history of RPGs: a lot of the procedures (including how prep is done, and is used in play) of classic D&D make sense primarily in the context of this sort of exercise: they are focused on how the GM can best establish certain sorts of imaginary problems/puzzles, and then on supporting players in engaging with them, and the GM in deciding how to adjudicate those efforts.

Playing the sort of game described in the previous paragraph is not much like storytelling, any more than someone explaining how they would use an axe and a bedsheet torn into strips to make a raft is telling a story.

I think recognising the gap between this primordial form of RPGing, and story (cf fiction or shared imagination) also helps understand why some other RPGing takes the forms that it does. I think Eero Tuovinen gets it right, for instance, when he describes the Dragonlance modules as "pushing the AD&D content delivery chassis to its extreme ends and beyond in an effort to deliver a true high fantasy epic". I don't think anyone who was starting with a clean slate, and trying to come up with a game of shared imagination whose play would reliably produce a high fantasy epic, would come up with the AD&D rules based around map-and-key resolution plus a single-person-per-figure wargame system for resolving combat.

Adventure hooks can also be looked at through this lens. In classic D&D the real adventure hook is the desire for XP; and so the in-character motivation to enter the dungeon can be lampshaded with the flimsiest of lampshades (see eg White Plume Mountain, or The Isle of Dread). Take away the motivation to get treasure out of dungeons, however - while maintaining a procedure of play which involves the players moving across a map (literal or perhaps, increasingly over the decades, figurative) to learn what the GM has noted about it - and hooks become more important. (Or else lampshades not to hang over a gameplay motivation - the desire for XP - but over a social motivation - the desire to work through the material that the GM has prepared.)

I think the difference between adventure hooks and Apocalypse World's front is pretty stark. As the rulebook for AW says, the purpose of prepping fronts is to give the GM something interesting to say. And as the principles say, the GM should always say what their prep demands. This is a way of "disclaiming" decision-making - which strengthens the sense of the shared fiction's "externality"/"reality" and means that the players are playing in and against a concrete situation rather than the GM's moment-to-moment whims. So, while very different as a procedure from classic map-and-key, I think fronts have more in common with it than with adventure hooks. But instead of the goal being to explore and then beat the GM's prepped dungeon, the goal becomes to find out what happens to these protagonists in this conflict-riven apocalypse world. Which is something much close to a story, albeit not pre-plotted, than to solving a problem in an imaginary space.

I'll try and be concise: you cannot have a story until you have a plot, and a plot is the series of events that make up the story. Therefore, there is no story until the thing is done. After the last die is rolled, the aggregate of what happened at the table, tempered by the recollections and perceptions of the participants defines the story.

RPGs generate story, but you don't play one.
My point is that when a story emerges from play, by definition that story (the tale of our band of weirdos liberating gold from a dragon's hoard, for example) is not complete until the game reaches some sort of resolution.
Some RPGing clearly does involve a pre-authored plot: eg, many modules, with the DL modules as the classic example.

Some of these modules include instructions to the GM about how to do things that will ensure the plot is preserved in the phase of potentially disruptive player action declarations. This can be instructions to suspend the rules of the game (eg DL's "obscure deaths"). But it can also take the form of instructions about how to frame scenes or narrate consequences (eg If the players don't search the body and find the note, then such-and-such a NPC comes up to them and tells them what it is that they need to know to move on to the next scene in the story).

But anyway, when thinking about story in the context of RPgs, I don't think that focusing on the completed plot is very helpful. First, as many others have posted, a plot can be resolved or completed to an extent, yet still be very amenable to continuing on (serial fiction, in whatever form, is an obvious example).

And second, once we focus on the resolution of a plot we can see that a RPG can generate that sort of resolution even though it is obvious to all the participants that the "thing" is not yet done. It's quite possible to design a RPG so that, in play, it will reliably produce rising action in respect of a protagonist's concerns/conflicts which then result in a climax/crisis with a resolution. And this can be done so that the relevant time scale is on a part with the presentation of stories in other media, so that - in play - it is experienced as a story. We don't have to wait until after.
 

I could see how Blades in the Dark (and most Forged in the Dark like Scum & Villainy) could feel like a Writer's Room especially around having the Players help the GM come up with an interesting Consequence and Devil's Bargain. Now, Players don't need to do that (my table didn't) and it leaves a lot of creative burden on the GM, which made me feel really burnt out at the end of the session (I definitely missed traditional PbtA Basic Moves pretty quickly). I believe the expansion Deep Cuts puts more responsibility on the Players to make Level 1 Harm cause penalties and to come up with the Devil's Bargains, so in that way, you have to be pulled from Actor Stance.
As far as i remember, the only space in which the game actively suggests soliciting player input on consequences is Bargains - which is a complication that’ll happen regardless. And that’s up to the table and GM to do, I only reached out if I didn’t have a good idea in the moment because 5 minds are more creative then 1.
This prompted me to look at the SRD on Devil's Bargains:

PCs in Blades are reckless scoundrels addicted to destructive vices—they don’t always act in their own best interests. To reflect this, the GM or any other player can offer you a bonus die if you accept a Devil’s Bargain. Common Devil’s Bargains include:
  • Collateral damage, unintended harm.
  • Sacrifice coin or an item.
  • Betray a friend or loved one.
  • Offend or anger a faction.
  • Start and/or tick a troublesome clock.
  • Add heat to the crew from evidence or witnesses.
  • Suffer harm.
The Devil’s Bargain occurs regardless of the outcome of the roll. You make the deal, pay the price, and get the bonus die.

The Devil’s Bargain is always a free choice. If you don’t like one, just reject it (or suggest how to alter it so you might consider taking it). You can always just push yourself for that bonus die instead.

If it’s ever needed, the GM has final say over which Devil’s Bargains are valid.​

The first thing I thought of was "friendly fire" using AoE spell attacks in D&D play: deliver some unintended harm (to one's teammates) in order to get a better outcome (by picking up more enemies in the effect). So again with the caveat that I've read but not played, it seems to me that the Blades GM should be trying to present situations where Devil's Bargains are implicit, and fairly obviously so. And then the player doesn't have to leave "actor stance" to make the decision to take the proffered bargain.
 

This prompted me to look at the SRD on Devil's Bargains:

PCs in Blades are reckless scoundrels addicted to destructive vices—they don’t always act in their own best interests. To reflect this, the GM or any other player can offer you a bonus die if you accept a Devil’s Bargain. Common Devil’s Bargains include:​
  • Collateral damage, unintended harm.
  • Sacrifice coin or an item.
  • Betray a friend or loved one.
  • Offend or anger a faction.
  • Start and/or tick a troublesome clock.
  • Add heat to the crew from evidence or witnesses.
  • Suffer harm.
The Devil’s Bargain occurs regardless of the outcome of the roll. You make the deal, pay the price, and get the bonus die.​
The Devil’s Bargain is always a free choice. If you don’t like one, just reject it (or suggest how to alter it so you might consider taking it). You can always just push yourself for that bonus die instead.​
If it’s ever needed, the GM has final say over which Devil’s Bargains are valid.​

The first thing I thought of was "friendly fire" using AoE spell attacks in D&D play: deliver some unintended harm (to one's teammates) in order to get a better outcome (by picking up more enemies in the effect). So again with the caveat that I've read but not played, it seems to me that the Blades GM should be trying to present situations where Devil's Bargains are implicit, and fairly obviously so. And then the player doesn't have to leave "actor stance" to make the decision to take the proffered bargain.

Actually good (interesting) Devil's Bargains are often outside the scope of the score, ideally wrapping in factions or Rivals/Allies and the wider city.
 

I feel that this description of play is foregrounding an approach to play that is "no myth" or "shared myth", but also somewhat GM-driven.

When it comes to the initial state of affairs, how is that established? Does the GM read (or paraphrase) from their notes? Or do they extrapolate a description from their map-and-key? Or do they pick up on some player decision in the building of their PC - say, the player's authorship of a Belief or a Best Interest - and riff on that in some fashion? These are pretty different ways of getting a RPG session going, and produce pretty different play experiences, that are also going to be pretty different in how "story" results from them.

When it comes to "necessary information", what does that include? Does the GM tell the players why their PCs are motivated to care about this situation? Or is the PC motivation implicit in the way the game is set up (eg in classic D&D, characters want treasure because players want XP)? Or does the player provide the motivation? If the last-most, what is the order of operations between the player authoring a character motivation and the GM authoring an initial situation? Reversing the order of operations radically changes the play experience.

Another aspect of "necessary information" is what the GM describes. And this is very different across different approaches to RPGing. In classic D&D, the GM describes architecture and some furnishings. Anything else is colour; and a lot of potential colour is left undescribed (eg it's pretty rare, in my experience, in classic D&D play, to try and describe the patterns in stone walls, or even the sort of stone the walls are made of; or the cut of a NPC's clothes; or the shape of a NPC's nose: whereas these are all things it would be pretty common to describe in a novel dealing with similar subject matter). And in classic D&D play, the GM is also, to an extent, hoarding information - the players are expected to work to get it. Whereas in some other games the is typically trying to shovel information out the door, because play is not at all about investigation or exploration, but about evaluation and response (Vincent Baker talks about this in DitV; and I'm thinking also of my own experience of Prince Valiant).

When it comes to describing what happens next, it's not always the GM feeding things through heuristics of the rules: eg in Burning Wheel, if a roll succeeds then the player's description of what they were hoping that their PC would achieve establishes the new state of affairs. And in map-and-key play, the GM typically doesn't feed through heuristics of the rules, but rather consults their map and key - so the phenomenology of play includes a lot of the GM looks down, consults their papers, and then looks up and says what happens, or what the PCs see. And there is non-dungeon-crawling play, and even non-map-and-key play, where a lot of the time the GM looks at their notes to determine what happens next.

I agree with you that it move from "shared imagined space" to "story" is a common one. But I think it's a bit of a non sequitur: because telling stories together is only one way to establish a shared imagined space.
I didn't actually suggest that it moves from shared imaginary space to story. I think, as others have suggested that it might be fashioned into a story after the fact, but in terms of what's happening I'll confine my example resolutely to something more like 'the exploration of the shared imaginary space'.

I don't see map and key resolution as a special case here at all. The map and key is simply the form in which the rules suggest that setting conent be preloaded. Map and key also directly indexes the rules at almost every step via encounter rolls, reactions rolls, and trap rolls (on the fortune side) and an on the exploration procedure in the rules on the other (the non-fortune bits.
Adventure hooks can also be looked at through this lens. In classic D&D the real adventure hook is the desire for XP; and so the in-character motivation to enter the dungeon can be lampshaded with the flimsiest of lampshades (see eg White Plume Mountain, or The Isle of Dread). Take away the motivation to get treasure out of dungeons, however - while maintaining a procedure of play which involves the players moving across a map (literal or perhaps, increasingly over the decades, figurative) to learn what the GM has noted about it - and hooks become more important. (Or else lampshades not to hang over a gameplay motivation - the desire for XP - but over a social motivation - the desire to work through the material that the GM has prepared.)
I agree, but I'm not sure how this is relevant to my main point. Different games provided different motivations for how the GM and the players via their avatars decide to act, but what actually happens at the table remains functionally the same. I don't think it's obvious that a desire to, as you say, work through the DMs material accurately describes what D&D players want to do either. That isn't to deny that the material in question exists, or that it informs a lot of what happens at the table, but I don't think that's what motivates D&D players. Personally, I've never had a similar thought in my life when playing D&D.

The setting, through description and action takes on an immediacy at the table that I think is far more important to play. D&D is an excellent example of a game that happens one situation at a time, with each situation being the immediate focus of play. The reality of the 10x10 room with its lone orc guarding a chest is what the players are engaging with, regardless of whether a description of that orc was sitting somewhere in the GMs prep. Moreover, I don't think players care a fig for the idea of working through the GMs prep. I think the GM probably does, but in many cases only to the extent that DMing situations that escape her notes is rather more work and carries more 'risk'.

Quite a lot of more modern OSR design focuses on various ways to better link these dungeon situations together. Things like factions to engage with, room contents that connect various areas, all sorts of things. All in the service of providing better connective tissue to the situations detailed on the map and key (and some games eschew the map and key all together while retaining the setting trappings and basic game experience.)
I think the difference between adventure hooks and Apocalypse World's front is pretty stark. As the rulebook for AW says, the purpose of prepping fronts is to give the GM something interesting to say. And as the principles say, the GM should always say what their prep demands. This is a way of "disclaiming" decision-making - which strengthens the sense of the shared fiction's "externality"/"reality" and means that the players are playing in and against a concrete situation rather than the GM's moment-to-moment whims. So, while very different as a procedure from classic map-and-key, I think fronts have more in common with it than with adventure hooks. But instead of the goal being to explore and then beat the GM's prepped dungeon, the goal becomes to find out what happens to these protagonists in this conflict-riven apocalypse world. Which is something much close to a story, albeit not pre-plotted, than to solving a problem in an imaginary space.
Well, I didn't say they were the same thing, only that both are examples of 'narrative' elements, a proto-narrative if you will - a suggestion of situation to come. All of these exists across a wide range of games (fronts aren't unique to AW, I use them in my Shadowdark play, for example).

I think you're digging too deep for a rationale for 'always say what your prep demands'. Fronts and their ever-advancing elements (once begun) do indeed allow the GM to disclaim some elements of decision making, but I think the why is simpler than you seem to think. When you have prep, any amount of prep, that sets some setting elements in motion those become a part of the logic of the setting. The front in AW provides another stable handhold for the GM when it comes to adjudication. In this light the front does the same job as the map and key - it stabilizes setting elements. More generally, what I mean here is that when the GM knows that X, Y, and Z are going to happen (as described in the front) those become a tool rather than work in and of themselves. These stable setting elements free the GM to concentrate their creative and descriptive energies elsewhere.

I think it's the elsewhere that really separates AW play from dungeon play. AW has a much stronger idea about what the GM should be doing, in addition to the simply descriptive and here's is where AW's focus on character connections and internal motivation really shine (IMO anyway).

But this doesn't mean that AW isn't a game that progresses one situation at a time. Or that game play doesn't focus on the immediate problem or challenge faced by the current situation. AW quite obviously plays out precisely like that, regardless of how the nature or specifics of the problem were arrived at. However, the connective tissue provided by the rules, the fashion in which the game closely ties those situations to other existing setting elements is far tighter and more reactive.

This post is already long, so I'll reserve my thought about plot and the more literary concerns like rising action and resolution for a future post.
 

For my part, I think you are creating a story through play, but that story is not what happens at the table per se. Rather, the story is how we talk about it after the game is done.
I am going to start with this, because I think it is an area of the game not discussed enough. Outside the table talk, both during the campaign and after, is definitely how the story of the game gets remembered. Key scenes, key antagonists, key NPCs, key dialogue. It is very similar to a memorable movie.
Stories have a structure that does not really work in play. RPGs are messy, ephemeral things in play, with terrible pacing and contradictory plot elements.
That said, I disagree with this. The contradictory plot elements and terrible pacing is something that happens when it's more reliant on improvisation. And that does not mean a great story isn't being created! But, as a player who hyper-focuses on those two things (and never says anything about them), I can say that a lot of prep goes a long way in eliminating the messiness.
What do you think of TTRPGs (broadly) in relation to "story." Are RPGs "stories." Are they "story generators"? Something else?
I view them as both. When you pick up a module or adventure path or create one of your own, there is a story in there, even if it is just an outline. The storyboard exists. It might get altered along the way, but it is there. That is where the story generator comes into play. Because while the storyboard might be there, the characters are not. And those characters might start to change the storyboard.
How do the particular mechanics of a game interact with what you think the relationship is?
Mechanics are everything when it comes to story. I will leave it at that.
 

I was struck by this post. There can't be a RPG without "fiction": shared imagination is core to RPGing.
I thought the same thing, especially when the situation the GM is describing, the setting backstory, and the actions the players decide their characters take in the post being responded to, are all fiction.

Funny hats, voices and other sorts of performance, on the other hand, are optional in RPGing but also not integral to stories. (Not all stories are performances.)
No, but they might make videos of your sessions more entertaining than Andy Warhol's Sleep, for example, although that's admittedly a low bar to set.
 
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I agree with this. I enjoy GMing, or playing, a RPG session - generally I enjoy it a lot! And a significant part of my enjoyment is seeing what interesting stuff happens to these people and also seeing what interesting stuff these people do.
Right, and, while I don't have any data on this besides my own experience, I think that's probably true for a lot of people who play RPGs. What I find odd about this thread is the contention that the participants in a session can receive this "stuff" (i.e. the events happening around the characters and the things they do in response that are being talked about at the table) and not receive the story the stuff constitutes until some later time (e.g. after the participants have had a chance to piece it all together in their minds into a connected narrative which, for some reason, requires a period of rumination). I think, for this to be true, there must be some rather disjointed RPGing going on out there, in which events do not cohere until they can be pieced together retrospectively.

But I don't think I would get much pleasure from, say, watching a video replay of one of my sessions. It would be a bit Warhol-esque.
I've had thoughts of recording audio from some of my sessions but have been content to write play reports from my notes and memory after the fact. Apart from being just a transcript of events in the fiction, however, I also try to include my decision making about what fiction was introduced and how, and about mechanical resolution, both why it was resorted to and how it played out, including things like results of die rolls, which I find interesting in and of themselves, apart from the fiction that was generated and talked about in gameplay.
 

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