Let's talk about "plot", "story", and "play to find out."

[RenleyRenfield]

I think that the Apocalypse Word is so obviously structured completely differently than say, D&D and other more trad games, so it makes it clearer that it should be approached differently. But I don't know, I am just theorising.

I would very much say so, yes. Apocalypse World and many PBTA games are entirely different play styles nd Gm styles than D&D/RuneQuest/Pathfinder/GURPS
(not a good or bad thing, just agreeing that there is a marked difference in both playstyle and fundamentals of each)

Because the cost are boring mechanical stuff that are recovered with more boring mechanical stuff. Got stress, use downtime action to recover later, got heat, use reduce heat, got damage, use downtime to heal. And it can create tension, but it in itself does not create interesting fiction! It does not create a compelling story! (The topic of the thread!) That requires, events, plot twists etc, so consequences that create those are better for the story!

I have also struggled with the 'compelling story' in how codified play is in Blades/Forged in the Dark is. But FitD is also different than Apocalypse World in how its run and played... So that is interesting too.

Like you do not just roll prowl to sneak past a guard, trying to pick a lock silently, survey area for Bluecoats etc? How the system works if you roll to resist making noise when you try to silently sneak past someone you can be taken out of scene because you were so traumatised by it, and that is just ludicrous. Like my character go his trauma from from a scene where a person accidentally revealed that they were the one who had killed my character's parents years ago, and my character killed them in cold blood on the spot. That I think was more appropriate, and timing it so certainly was not an accident. The system does not differentiate between sneaking past a cook and fighting a person who murdered your parents, both can result a trauma just the same.

This is a great point! one that I think FitD more so, and PBTA less so = really show how they are different than D&D. In Blades in the Dark it is almost as if the rules and character sheets are for the players, merely to track pressures and 'todo' stuff. Where as the fiction, the story and narrative in the moment of the scene = is the main truth and drama our "movie" is focusing on.

• Seeing a character get 'stressed out of a scene' in Inception film over trying to create a dream-element = valid reason to stress out
• Seeing a character get 'stressed out of a scene' in seeing their dead wife come back to taunt them = valid reason to stress out

= but they are different scenes, different moments in our film. They are the "most interesting" moments of each type of scene they can be. And the "stressed out" is just the tracker, but the 'fiction as to why' is still very much different and important for the storytelling.

At least, that is how I run it

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Disagree. We tend to have entire sessions of downtime scenes, room to breathe, develop the characters and relationships, see the city (or the locality for whatever game I'm playing) and its interplay, etc. Push Yourself (resist) rolls are awesome, we narrate through that to show how the PCs pull things out by teh skin of their teeth. Threats push the narrative to its limit.

I don't need "twists" or whatever to make any of that happen. The objectives of a score and the obstacles along the way, along with the themes that the players bring are plenty.

Yeah, I just don't see this as interesting. And sometimes you might narrate some downtime actions, but stuff that gets repeated tends to get glossed over and I see little point in wasting time on that.

I mean. I'm fronting obstacles like: "you're being chased through a town by a hovering VTOL with its door guns deploying - what do you do? (that was a clock to get away!) A 6'5" female Skovlander opens the child's door and gazes down at you with a scowl "who are you?" What do you do? (the answer: babble "step on me mommy I mean uhh") You're dancing with Prince Juniper and you see Princess Rayann looking at you with hurt on her face, she clearly thinks you're snubbing her after all that, what do you do?

Right. So these, I think, are mostly interesting things. These are things players need to react to.

No? Why would I do stuff that boring?

Because the game tells us that the action ratings are used for rolling stuff like that?

Edit: you might really benefit from teh Threat roll! The GM spends the game telegraphing Threats, and then you say how you overcome them!

You could be right. I think the game being supposedly player driven combined with non-immediate consequences has made our gameplay rather predictable and our GM passive.

 

[Fenris-77]

Yeah, I just don't see this as interesting. And sometimes you might narrate some downtime actions, but stuff that gets repeated tends to get glossed over and I see little point in wasting time on that.

Sure, but your tastes in this regard, as with the tastes in the post you are replying to, are really neither here nor there in terms of the game taken more generally. Downtime stuff doesn't usually take entire sessions (although is certainly could) - the game presents it as more like bookends to each session.

 

[zakael19]

Because the game tells us that the action ratings are used for rolling stuff like that?

The game wants you to roll to bypass obstacles using approaches to solve problems.

An action is challenging if there's an obstacle to the PC's goal that's dangerous or troublesome in some way. We don't make an action roll unless the PC is put to the test. If their action is something that we'd expect them to simply accomplish, then we don't make an action roll.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I’m less interested in labeling something wrong than in understanding what’s happening in play and how to adjust to make play more enjoyable (assuming that’s a goal… I know you’ve said the game is pretty enjoyable, but it sounds like there’s room for improvement).

I think the GM should try and inflict more situational consequences. Use those to evolve the situation. Put the characters in bad spots where it’s not easy for them to get out unscathed. Pressure them in areas where their Action ratings aren’t the best. Hit them HARD and OFTEN so that they feel the need to Resist and use up their Stress.

If the Crew collectively has enough DTAs to address all their issues, or to easily spend some Coin to buy more without worry… then the pressure is not on them enough.

I mean it’s hard to make specific suggestions without a complete picture… but that’s the gist of it.

So you're absolutely correct on what the GM should do more. But I also understand why the book has lead us to the situation we're at: that the rules offer filling clocks as a decent default consequence has lead the GM relying on that, the rules saying that making almost all rolls risky/normal has lead to the GM not utilising the scale of position/effect more, and that the game has so many mechanical widgets focused on gauge and money management has lead to the players learning to use those tools effectively to minimise the risks and consequences.

 

[Fenris-77]

So you're absolutely correct on what the GM should do more. But I also understand why the book has lead us to the situation we're at: that the rules offer filling clocks as a decent default consequence has lead the GM relying on that, the rules saying that making almost all rolls risky/normal has lead to the GM not utilising the scale of position/effect more, and that the game has so many mechanical widgets focused on gauge and money management has lead to the players learning to use those tools effectively to minimise the risks and consequences.

This is absolutely not what the rules offer.

 

[zakael19]

Sure, but your tastes in this regard, as with the tastes in the post you are replying to, are really neither here nor there in terms of the game taken more generally. Downtime stuff doesn't usually take entire sessions (although is certainly could) - the game presents it as more like bookends to each session.

Anecdata, but at least over on the BITD discord most people spend significant time on Downtime across FITD games (there's been a lot of discussion about this). I've also played a FITD game that had waaayyy better downtime activities than Blades does, and ported that sort of framing back over when I finally ran Blades.

This is absolutely not what the rules offer.

I think there's an intent in the game that "putting down a clock when it follows from teh fiction" should be an easy Complication (one of the 5! categories of Consequences) to go softer at times, especially to avoid negating 4/5s.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The game wants you to roll to bypass obstacles using approaches to solve problems.

But there is an obstacle: a person who might notice you (and you're robbing the house, so you'd rather they wouldn't.)

 

[Fenris-77]

@zakael19 Both action declarations and the GM adjudication are based on the framing of the specifics of the situation at hand. That the result might also be appropriate to move along a longer term goal is a secondary consideration. Clocks are for tracking the cumulative effect of a series of discrete actions, they aren't, in of themselves, a specific 'consequence' of anything.

 

[zakael19]

@zakael19 Both action declarations and the GM adjudication are based on the framing of the specifics of the situation at hand. That the result might also be appropriate to move along a longer term goal is a secondary consideration. Clocks are for tracking the cumulative effect of a series of discrete actions, they aren't, in of themselves, a specific 'consequence' of anything.

Hm? The game presents 5 categories of Consequences (as in, the things you bring into play as the fiction and rules demand):

• Reduced Effect
• Complication
• Lost Opportunity
• Worse Position
• Harm

Starting or ticking a clock is considered a Complication consequence, "I'm going to mark two ticks on the 'Suspicion' clock as your poor attempt to dance makes speculative gazes fall your way" or "I'm marking 3 ticks on the 'back offices burn down' clock as the papers fly out of the filing cabinets and spark more flames!"

But there is an obstacle: a person who might notice you (and you're robbing the house, so you'd rather they wouldn't.)

Ah ok. So "sneak past the guard" isn't our objective here. It's get into the house unnoticed. We care about goals, right? The Obstacle is "the guard notices you" your Action is "I'm going to shimmy up the house nice and slow so he doesnt see me, and I'm going wrap my Fine Shadow Cloak around me for extra cover, Prowl?"

And the Position is probably Risky, Effect ... Great? On a success, you'll slip inside unnoticed.