D&D General Let's Talk About the Changing Game

[Reynard]

Has anyone played Forbidden Lands? From my understanding the game is built around characters having a stronghold from level 1. Vaesen, another free league game, works this way too. What's appealing is that the home base can be upgraded and provides certain mechanical bonuses (BitD works this way too).

That said, I think there is a certain fantasy around being able to just carry everything you need in your backpack, traveling the world with your friends. A stronghold game that is merely home design invoices and taxes will not be that appealing by contrast.

Mutant: year Zero (another Free League game) also has a cool home base mechanic deeply incorporated into play.

But, we are talking about D&D, and specifically how D&D had an in-built change of playstyle over the course of the campaign.

 

[DND_Reborn]

In my first 5E 1-20 game, the PCs were awarded noble titles and some lands in the kingdom around 10th level IIRC after saving a noble family from disaster and other services to the kingdom. The players went to the lands they were given, had to clear out some things, including an Adult Green Shadow Dragon which had taken up residency until the ruins of a castle.

Later, after defeating some Hill Giants, the two druids claimed the Hill Giant stronghold in the Gnomish lands to the south of the kingdom (allied with the kingdom) and established a reserve in the mountains--allied with the gnomes.

These two places served as bases of operations for the characters as they continued their adventures, until the campaign finally ended at level 20.

In my prior 5-year AD&D campaign, the party build a castle around a portal to Hell to protect the region from devils and "retired" there for a generation before they had to come back after their children had run into issues on an adventure. Ultimately, the prior generation defeated the Wyrm invading the Elven Kingdom, allowing the next generation to forge on and complete other quests.

While I've never had players want to go to war to conquer or anything, establishing home-bases and such is pretty common in longer campaigns IME. Even in 5E, once PCs have sufficient funds or are rewarded for services, the players seem to enjoy the additional character growth.

 

[Malmuria]

Especially if you characterize it that way.

Well there was a bit of that in AD&D, no?

But to elaborate on my thought, I think a stronghold system for 5e/6e would have to think about the worldbuilding implications of a group of level 10-15 characters. Like low level dungeon crawls, strongholds in Rules Cyclopedia/AD&D assume a world that is fantasy but still low magic and quasi-medieval. Whereas 5e is a high magic, heroic game, from the start. By the time you get to level 12, you may have already saved a continent from destruction. For that character to build a little castle on a hill somewhere is a bit anticlimatic. Plus, a home base might be nice thematically, but it is really necessary? For example, last time I played 5e, I was a genie warlock and I carried around a home the size of a small apartment that I could escape into at any moment. I'm not saying you can't make it necessary and integrate it into gameplay (starting with it granting mechanical features as you upgrade it would be a start), but that's the world-building/scenario design challenge that you would face.

 

[Reynard]

Well there was a bit of that in AD&D, no?

But to elaborate on my thought, I think a stronghold system for 5e/6e would have to think about the worldbuilding implications of a group of level 10-15 characters. Like low level dungeon crawls, strongholds in Rules Cyclopedia/AD&D assume a world that is fantasy but still low magic and quasi-medieval. Whereas 5e is a high magic, heroic game, from the start. By the time you get to level 12, you may have already saved a continent from destruction. For that character to build a little castle on a hill somewhere is a bit anticlimatic. Plus, a home base might be nice thematically, but it is really necessary? For example, last time I played 5e, I was a genie warlock and I carried around a home the size of a small apartment that I could escape into at any moment. I'm not saying you can't make it necessary and integrate it into gameplay (starting with it granting mechanical features as you upgrade it would be a start), but that's the world-building/scenario design challenge that you would face.

Just because characters are capable of ridiculous feats of superhuman power doesn't mean they can appreciate a warm.bed and a stable roof at a place they call their own, surrounded by friends and family. Even Magnificent Mansion would start to feel like a prison aftera while.

One of my biggest pet peeves is players who put all this effort into their character backstories and hard moral lines, but don't ever try and make them respond to the world as actual human beings.

"I have goodberries." Yeah, technically eating MRE's is all you need too but tell me you'll do that for a weak and not seriously spring for a homemade hot meal and a bath and bed besides.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Most of my campaigns tend to pitter out by level 10-13 or start to become too all-powerful with the fate of the world hanging on each dungeon and becomes stale.

The game does change from 1st level where a couple goblins hide to challenge you to suddenly at 5th level the goblins are nowhere to be found and now giants are hiding in larger bushes to jump out and attack. By 10th level you need even larger bushes and dragons to be hiding. The lonely goblins must have all been eaten until the PCs move on and bring the giants and dragons with them.

Wizards tried to change the game some by making the 'sweet spot' of gaming levels last longer and then speed up the first couple and last few levels. This seems to work ok for my group. One tends to get to 3rd, maybe 5th rather fast and then slow down to 10th. Never got high enough to speed through 17-20 though.

I would like some things on establishing domains and castles and such. Making magic items and new spells. We will se or maybe another 3PP will come out with something to fit the new edition.

Yeah I definitely use the big enemies sparingly, even at high levels. I’d rather give humanoids enough knobs and dials that they can threaten the PCs.

SEPHIROTH is way scarier than big dragon things you have to fight to get macguffins in the final act of the game. Also autocorrect just did that on its own to SEPHIROTH. I’m leaving it.

SEPHIROTH! <cue music>

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Well there was a bit of that in AD&D, no?

But to elaborate on my thought, I think a stronghold system for 5e/6e would have to think about the worldbuilding implications of a group of level 10-15 characters. Like low level dungeon crawls, strongholds in Rules Cyclopedia/AD&D assume a world that is fantasy but still low magic and quasi-medieval. Whereas 5e is a high magic, heroic game, from the start. By the time you get to level 12, you may have already saved a continent from destruction. For that character to build a little castle on a hill somewhere is a bit anticlimatic. Plus, a home base might be nice thematically, but it is really necessary? For example, last time I played 5e, I was a genie warlock and I carried around a home the size of a small apartment that I could escape into at any moment. I'm not saying you can't make it necessary and integrate it into gameplay (starting with it granting mechanical features as you upgrade it would be a start), but that's the world-building/scenario design challenge that you would face.

I really hope this is exactly what they plan to address in the upcoming rules for PC home bases. I want. A castle.

Acquisitions Inc is really good for giving you interesting things to do with money, and giving adventuring benefits for managing your “franchise”. Just excuse the humorous bits if you dislike them. The actual mechanics are solid.

I hope we can hire people to do downtime things for us, centered on the base, and that we can set up the base to make downtime of specific types more gainful, like building a library giving the ability to research, translate, and experiment, faster. Or a training ground to spend time making your hireling guards better or learning weapon proficiencies yourself.

 

[Malmuria]

I really hope this is exactly what they plan to address in the upcoming rules for PC home bases. I want. A castle.

Acquisitions Inc is really good for giving you interesting things to do with money, and giving adventuring benefits for managing your “franchise”. Just excuse the humorous bits if you dislike them. The actual mechanics are solid.

I hope we can hire people to do downtime things for us, centered on the base, and that we can set up the base to make downtime of specific types more gainful, like building a library giving the ability to research, translate, and experiment, faster. Or a training ground to spend time making your hireling guards better or learning weapon proficiencies yourself.

I think the acquisitions incorporated and dice camera action podcasts were good in this regard, as they regularly featured home bases but in a way that fit with the general tone and ethos of 5e.

 

[Reynard]

As with all things in 5E,it would be nice to have dials to turn, from 0 to 11. For some people this stuff is boring paperwork, but some folks love the spreadsheet feel. Rather than having to search for just the right 3PP system, it would be better to be able to set the complexity in a consistent system.

 

[payn]

As with all things in 5E,it would be nice to have dials to turn, from 0 to 11. For some people this stuff is boring paperwork, but some folks love the spreadsheet feel. Rather than having to search for just the right 3PP system, it would be better to be able to set the complexity in a consistent system.

Agreed, but once 5E sold like hot cakes, modularity died.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Agreed, but once 5E sold like hot cakes, modularity died.

You say that like these are mutually exclusive things. Elaborate?

 

[payn]

You say that like these are mutually exclusive things. Elaborate?

During NEXT there was a lot of talk about modularity being able to dial the game in a myriad of ways. Though, once the game took off, there was little need to produce the modules.

 

[Umbran]

Well I didn't say anything about "other stuff to care about" except in the context of how I experienced the positive effects of the changing game. I'm not sure why you want to actively not-engage the premise. Saying one thing answers a specific issue doesn't necessarily say anything about what else might answer that issue.

Because I think the framing of the premise assumes a particular conclusion. It is based in the patterns of a game from the early years of RPGs, which, to be honest, wasn't the epitome of great game design.

You said, "I think the Changing Game is the solution for the woes of high level D&D that so many people experience." (emphasis mine). I'm pushing back on it being a singular good solution. Not to say that there aren't folks that like it, but that as a general approach to long campaigns, it is a very narrow and specific vision.

I know some folks here chafe at the "approved mode of play", but it probably pays to consider that, for maybe several different reasons, this mode was less popular. In that case, adding it back in the core rules may not be the best choice. A more general approach to keeping a campaign fresh and appealing may be in order.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think the acquisitions incorporated and dice camera action podcasts were good in this regard, as they regularly featured home bases but in a way that fit with the general tone and ethos of 5e.

Absolutely. I love building organizations in Star Wars Saga Edition, but 5 just ain’t gonna be that granular.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Agreed, but once 5E sold like hot cakes, modularity died.

I do not think they had to staff or budget for modularity

 

[Micah Sweet]

I do not think they had to staff or budget for modularity

Well, given the high sales numbers it seems that decision was on them.

 

[Dausuul]

Well, castles cost a lot. And you have to pay followers, or otherwise see to their well-being.

But my question was why can't you have things that the characters care about. The OP seemed to be noting, basically, that after a while, fighting for the sake of fighting gets boring, so give the PCs something else to deal with.

I am questioning why "build a castle and get followers" is really the only "thing they care about" on the table here. It is, honestly, kind of specific, and probably doesn't apply to a lot of PCs.

This presumes that castles and followers are the end rather than the means. AD&D pushed that notion by presenting you with followers but no way to use them -- they were just a status symbol. The OP, however, was talking about the B/X line, which assumed that you would want to lead your followers into battle and provided rules to do so.

If the scope of adventures grows as the PCs level up -- where low-level PCs tackle bandits and marauding orcs, and high-level PCs tackle regional or global threats -- then I would argue it makes perfect sense to incorporate such rules. When the Big Bad is commanding armies and laying waste to kingdoms, PCs should be able to bring more than just their own swords and spells to the table.

I find that DMs often venture into this territory at higher levels anyway, simply because it makes narrative sense. But then the DM has to improvise all the mechanics on the fly.